.357 Cast Bullet Hollow Point Expansion?

Gents -
I know some of you guys are CB shooters, & am hoping for some knowledgeable input. Been looking around for a cast HP bullet, for "field loads" in my 3" 65-3, 4" 686, & 2.5" 686-3. Ease of use w/ a speedloader, would be a BIG plus.

The ideal candidate would have good accuracy potential from .38+P velocity, through "mid-range" magnum. Thinking maybe 900 - 1150 fps max. It would also need to be constructed of an alloy that would expand in that velocity range.

Rimrock's 158LSWC-HP would be an obvious choice, except for the LSWC / speedloader thing...

Browsing the web, I found a custom caster that offers an interesting HP bullet, cast at 175 grns - from a NOE #360180 mould. I'd best describe it as an LBT style, WFN-GC, that looks like it would work well w/ a speedloader.

I have only one real initial concern w/ this particular bullet. I'm wondering if the alloy might be too hard (rated at 14 - 15Bhn) for reliable / soft target expansion.

Any thoughts on this point, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Most commercial cast bullets for .357 magnum loads are too hard to expand, and the ones I have bought certainly were.
I use Remington 158gr JSP for expanding hunting loads in .357, but you need more than .38 +P speeds for them to reliably expand. For .38+P, which are only 20,000 PSI, you might try Berry expanding HP, which are pretty soft.

There are lots of folks that swear by the old 158 gr LSWC .38 Special FBI load.

There are +P loads that are marketed or viewed as being the FBI load, but the original 1972 FBI load exceeds the SAAMI maximum pressure spec for "+P" ammunition. Meaning the original FBI load would be what we'd call a "+P+" load running in the neighborhood of 23,000 psi to generate between 1014 fps and 1090 fps (depending on whose original data you read) in a 4" barrel.

If you compare the velocity of the old FBI load with the modern commercial equivalents you'll find the new loads run around 900 fps in a 4" barrel.

Worse, most modern "FBI loads" don't use a pure lead bullet, so they not only have less velocity to drive expansion, but also use a harder bullet that resists expansion.

I just shake my head and move on when I read this misguided love for commercial "FBI Loads". When push comes to shove they just won't perform the way the folks behind the gun expect them to perform.

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In that regard, if you're attempting to hand load the equivalent of an FBI load, you'd need to load it to similar pressures to around 1000 fps in a 4" barrel, and given the pressures involved, you'll want to shoot it in either a .357 Mag or a revolver designed for .357 Mag, chambered in .38 Special.

You'll also want to use a pure or nearly pure lead bullet to ensure expansion, and then deal with the extra cleaning required due to the leading that will occur. Which is the reason why modern +P "FBI loads" use a harder bullet.

Most cast bullets intended for the .38 Special have a Brinnell hardness number of about 12, compared to about 5 for pure lead. If you can't easily dent it with your finger nail, it's too hard.

A couple of things.
If you are serious about cast. Consider these purchases to be test drives to help reduce the weight of the caster's box of regret (the molds that sucked)
Also, become versed in the concept of both hy tek and powder coating of cast bullets.
These allow softer alloys at higher velocity without the bore scrubbing drama.
This can elevate a serviceable HP design into a solid performer.

I guess I do not understand your question."Field Loads"

What do you want to shoot. Game, targets? Self Defense for 2 legged?

Why 38 +P out of 357Mag?

Cast lhp expansion is based on alloy & hp design. You can get expansion down around 825fps with a large/deep hp & soft alloy of 30-1 lead-tin. The higher the vel, the smaller the hp & slightly tougher, not harder alloy.
A 20-1 alloy will run fine about 1200-1250fps w/o a gas check, & it will expand. Coated with pc of hi-tek, maybe up to 1800fps. Btw, you can get a properly sized & lubed pure lead bullet to run 900fps with no leading & very good expansion, with the right hp design. If you really want good expanding lhp, cast your own.

Rule3 said:

I guess I do not understand your question."Field Loads"

What do you want to shoot. Game, targets? Self Defense for 2 legged?

Why 38 +P out of 357Mag?

Click to expand...

Intended purpose would primarily be for varmints & such - if you catch my drift.

I load a Dardas 158LSWC-BB over TiteGroup or 231 for paper punching. Works well.

Why .38+P?

To clarify: Not primarily 38+P, but a velocity range from 38+P through mid-range magnum (900 - 1150fps +/-)

Also, 2 of my 3 magnums are short barrel. Doubt I could get full house magnum velocity out of them - if I wanted to. Which I don't, anyway. Either the 2.5" 686-3, or the 3" 65-3 could quite conceivably be used in a SD scenario where over penetration - or magnum blast could be real concerns.

Additionally, I just might own another k frame .38spl - at some point. Sold a REAL nice NIB, 3" 64-3 last year, & been regretting it. Be nice to have a HP CB supply - that would be effective for the entire range spectrum.

For the record, although my handgun loading is almost exclusively CB, I do not cast, & probably won't start - in the near future.

fredj338 said:

Cast lhp expansion is based on alloy & hp design. You can get expansion down around 825fps with a large/deep hp & soft alloy of 30-1 lead-tin. The higher the vel, the smaller the hp & slightly tougher, not harder alloy.
A 20-1 alloy will run fine about 1200-1250fps w/o a gas check, & it will expand. Coated with pc of hi-tek, maybe up to 1800fps. Btw, you can get a properly sized & lubed pure lead bullet to run 900fps with no leading & very good expansion, with the right hp design. If you really want good expanding lhp, cast your own.
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Click to expand...

Thanks for the visual presentation - very informative.

Interesting that personal usage casters, usually refer to their alloys as a lead to tin ratio (20:1, etc), but the commercial guys (& the rest of us poor slobs), are stuck w/ BHN. Is that due to commercial alloys (Lyman #2, etc.) containing additional materials? Could you provide a BHN equivalent, for the 20-1, & 30-1 alloys? It would be most helpful.

I'm really starting to get the feeling that the 14 - 15 BHN HP CB in question (original post), is not going to expand well - in my specified velocity range. Shame about that...

Guess I should get a pot, huh?

I would just use a a soft LSWC or FN. If you try the FBI load which is soft and HP it is like shooting a full magnum. It is brutal in smaller frame guns.

The LSWC will penetrate and make a hole

GCF said:

Intended purpose would primarily be for varmints & such - if you catch my drift.

I load a Dardas 158LSWC-BB over TiteGroup or 231 for paper punching. Works well.

Why .38+P?

2 of my 3 magnums are short barrel. Doubt I could get full house magnum velocity out of them - if I wanted to. Which I don't. Either the 2.5" 686-3, or the 3" 65-3 could quite conceivably be used in a SD scenario where over penetration - or magnum blast could be real concerns.

Additionally, I just might own another k frame .38spl - at some point. Sold a REAL nice NIB, 3" 64-3 last year, & been regretting it. Be nice to have a HP CB supply - that would be effective for the entire range spectrum.

For the record, although my handgun loads are almost exclusively CB, I do not cast, & probably won't start - in the near future.

Click to expand...

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that many .357 Magnum loads can be hideously inefficient in 2" and 3" barrels, particularly those loads using slow burning powders intended to get maximum performance in the .357 Magnums.

However, it is very load dependent and I would not exclude the use of the .357 Magnum cartridge case out of hand.

For example, with the same 125 gr .357 magnum loads in my 2.125" Model 60 and my 3" SP101, I get vastly different results with faster versus slower powders when the loads are otherwise comparable in terms of peak pressure:

2.125" barrel 18.0 gr 2400 - 993 fps
3" barrel 18.0 gr 2400 - 1090 fps

2.125" barrel 8.5 gr Unique 1185 fps
3" barrel 8.5.0 gr Unique - 1243 fps

In this case, the 2400 load should generate more velocity, but it doesn't as it does not have enough bore to burn efficiently and the result is an impressive muzzle flash and blast, lots of powder residue blown back at the shooter, and disappointing velocity with a very high SD. Also, increasing the charge another 1.5 grains only eeks out another 42 fps (3" barrel).

In comparison the Unique load generates more velocity in the short barrel, and does it with less flash, less recoil, a much lower SD. And increasing the charge .5 grains produces another 56 fps in velocity (3" barrel).

How does that compare to .38+P?

In this case, a .38 +P load right at the 20,000 psi limit will launch the same bullet at 951 fps in the 2.125" barrel and at 1030 fps in the 3" barrel.

Consequently, going with a .357 Magnum (that is still a couple steps below maximum) gives me an extra 213 fps over the +P load in a 3" barrel and 234 fps more velocity in the 2.125" barrel than a .38 +P load.

In both cases the .357 Mag load is well worth using.

GCF said:

Thanks for the visual presentation - very informative.

Interesting that personal usage casters, usually refer to their alloys as a lead to tin ratio (20:1, etc), but the commercial guys (& the rest of us poor slobs), are stuck w/ BHN. Is that due to commercial alloys (Lyman #2, etc.) containing additional materials? Could you provide a BHN equivalent, for the 20-1, & 30-1 alloys? It would be most helpful.

I'm really starting to get the feeling that the 14 - 15 BHN HP CB in question (original post), is not going to expand well - in my specified velocity range. Shame about that...

Guess I should get a pot, huh?

Click to expand...

from where your standing ..... yup, you should probably get a pot and at least some Lee sizing dies and a toaster oven for curing the coatings.
Keep screwing around ordering various bullets that you think you might like till you find some you KNOW you like.
Then, get the molds to make them.

GCF said:

Thanks for the visual presentation - very informative.

Interesting that personal usage casters, usually refer to their alloys as a lead to tin ratio (20:1, etc), but the commercial guys (& the rest of us poor slobs), are stuck w/ BHN. Is that due to commercial alloys (Lyman #2, etc.) containing additional materials? Could you provide a BHN equivalent, for the 20-1, & 30-1 alloys? It would be most helpful.

I'm really starting to get the feeling that the 14 - 15 BHN HP CB in question (original post), is not going to expand well - in my specified velocity range. Shame about that...

Guess I should get a pot, huh?

Click to expand...

Common Bullet Alloy Hardness




Alloy BHN
Lead

5
WW (stick on) 6
Tin 7
1 to 40 tin lead 8
1 to 30 tin lead 9
1 to 20 tin lead 10
1 to 10 tin lead 11
WW (clip on) 12
Lead Shot* 13
Lyman # 2 15
Water quenched WW 18
Linotype 18 - 19
Monotype 25 - 27
Oven heat treated WW 30 - 32
Antimony 50

Rule3 said:

I would just use a a soft LSWC or FN. If you try the FBI load which is soft and HP it is like shooting a full magnum. It is brutal in smaller frame guns.

The LSWC will penetrate and make a hole

Click to expand...

Actually, a soft, HP LSWC is my first choice for this application. Only problem is that they are not exactly speed loader friendly - which is what got me looking around at other style HP CB's in the first place.

Always nice to have a fast re-load (or two) on hand - just in case...
;=)

BB57 said:

...I would not exclude the use of the .357 Magnum cartridge case out of hand.

For example, with the same 125 gr .357 magnum loads in my 2.125" Model 60 and my 3" SP101, I get vastly different results with faster versus slower powders when the loads are otherwise comparable in terms of peak pressure:

2.125" barrel 18.0 gr 2400 - 993 fps
3" barrel 18.0 gr 2400 - 1090 fps

2.125" barrel 8.5 gr Unique 1185 fps
3" barrel 8.5.0 gr Unique - 1243 fps

Click to expand...

Guess I should have specified, that I use magnum brass - in magnum revolvers, exclusively. Regardless of caliber. It's sometimes a bit more challenging to develop a tack driving target load - in the bigger case, but saves scrubbing that pesky ring.

Interesting load test results there, BTW. Safe to assume magnum brass? Also, do you get comparable results w/ heavier (158 grn) bullets?

Had planned to utilize medium burn rate powders on hand for load work up. Unique, Power Pistol, VV N-330, N-340, N-350, AA #5, & #7 - if I can find some. Figured something in that selection would have an efficiency sweet spot - that will work well w/ a softer alloy CB.

venomballistics said:

from where your standing ..... yup, you should probably get a pot

Click to expand...

I can't remember how long it's been - since I loaded a jacketed handgun bullet. Got a few on the shelf, just don't really have an interest in shooting them. Kinda' weird...

I sometimes wonder what percentage of CB shooters, actually DON'T cast their own.

fredj338 said:

Common Bullet Alloy Hardness




Alloy BHN
Lead

5
WW (stick on) 6
Tin 7
1 to 40 tin lead 8
1 to 30 tin lead 9
1 to 20 tin lead 10
1 to 10 tin lead 11
WW (clip on) 12
Lead Shot* 13
Lyman # 2 15
Water quenched WW 18
Linotype 18 - 19
Monotype 25 - 27
Oven heat treated WW 30 - 32
Antimony 50

Click to expand...

Thanks much!

OKFC05 said:

I use Remington 158gr JSP for expanding hunting loads in .357, but you need more than .38 +P speeds for them to reliably expand. For .38+P, which are only 20,000 PSI, you might try Berry expanding HP, which are pretty soft.

Click to expand...

Buffalo Bore loads a pricy - but interesting "reduced power" magnum load, using a 158 grn Speer Gold Dot. Thinking it might fill the short barrel magnum bill, but really like to stick to cast - if possible...

Thanks!

GCF said:

I sometimes wonder what percentage of CB shooters, actually DON'T cast their own.

Click to expand...

I cast my own for about 25 years, and then about 7-8 years ago I decided that for pistol, revolver and .38-55 rifle bullets, I now have more money than time and I just buy them a couple thousand at a time.

For my BPCR Sharps shooting, I still cast my own, mainly because high quality cast bullets suitable for long range shooting in a .45-70 are way over priced.

I do not know if there are any commercial casters doing the 358156 hollow pointed. I cast these (pictured before the gas check was put on) out of clip on wheel weights, air cooled. The hollow point only goes half way from the tip to the top crimp groove. I do have a spud that takes the point all the way down to the crimp grooves that would expand/fragment much more violently but would really sacrifice penetration.



The top row was at revolver velocities. The bottom bullet was fired from a rifle.

It's going to be awfully hard to find an expanding cast boolit without casting your own.

I don't understand why SLs are a requirement for a "field load"

IMO, a full wadcutter is your best bet. It cuts the biggest channel without expansion.

Here's an article by C.E. Harris on the subject:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

I never really tested expansion, but the 358156 cast from 50/50 clip ons/pure lead is deadly accurate over 13.5 2400 in .38 cases (aka Skeeter Skelton load.)