.357 bullets for deer - experience?

[Old Corp]

Kinda wish we had a 'Handgun Hunting' sub here on the SWF...., but here goes -

Nope, not a poll, just hoping for some input from experience.
Long-time handgun hunter - also an adherent to open sights only.
Recently obtained a c.1979 Colt Python .357, 4". Always been a S&W guy but admired Pythons just due to their history and being the flagship of 'Old Colt' when craftsmen were on the production floor.

Plan to take the Python afield next Fall and blood it on at least one of our smallish Whitetails found in Eastern NC.
Know for most, and me included, that the 'go-to' hunting bullet is the Hornady 158 or 180 gr. XTP. I've used the 158 gr XTP in a carbine with very good results.... - just not sure I can get it up to good enough velocity in a 4" revolver for reliable expansion.

I hunt THICK cover - many shots are well inside 40 yards. Another caveat is that it is NOT a place where you enjoy blood trailing.....
(Plan to load up some Sierra 150 gr JHC's that are no longer produced - don't have many)

So - just ordered a bulk amount of Everglades 158 gr JHP's. Photos of them resemble a similar Sierra product.
Anyone here ever hunted with the Everglades bulk 158 gr JHP's or JSP's?? (their JSP's are out of stock)

Another alternate being considered is the GT Bullets 185 gr LFP-HP. Have some loaded to hunting levels but have not had time to try them - I just got the Python from a friend. (see post-script)

/////////////////////////////

A post-script here.... - I did shoot the remaining Sierra 150 gr JHC's with upper-level charges of AA-7.
I also shot several of the GT Bullets 185 gr LFP-HP using WW296.

Long story short - the Python did not like either of the loads. And the GT 180 gr. round's COAL when crimping in the crimp groove was almost exactly the length of the cylinder. I loaded only one at a time I was so afraid of 'crimp jump' from an adjoining chamber that would tie the gun up. even though all were firmly crimped. I also use an undersized expander, that just flares the case mouth only, resulting in very firm 'bullet pull'.

Tried some factory Federal 'American Eagle' .357's 158 gr. JSP and they almost cloverleafed at 25 yards from a rest.
Kind of offends me when my carefully put-together handloads are so easily outshot by mere factory ammo.

Again, any experience on game using actual Everglades 158 gr. JHP's appreciated.
Thanks all.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

I can't claim any personal experience with either the Everglades bullets or deer hunting with the .357 mag, but I have killed a bunch of deer with .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 Colt, and gave some consideration to the load I would use in the .357. Considering the expansion concerns of a JHP bullet, especially from your 4" barrel, I believe I would try to work up a satisfactory load using a heavy SWC, preferably one with a large meplat and a gas check. To address the COAL issue, just use .38 spl. cases.

 

[dave1918a2]

While the .357 doesn't qualify up here or in CO for handgun hunting, the bullet used is important. However not as important as being a handgun shooter. Find an accurate load with the bullet You choose and practice, practice, practice. Place a 6" bullseye at 50 yards. If You cannot keep all 6 in the 6" black shooting off-hand ( no support ), keep practicing or stay home. Respect the animal You hunt. Good luck in Your endeavor.

 

[WR Moore]

When you say "smallish" deer, what kind of weight are you talking about?

First off, the deer isn't gonna drop at the shot, you're gonna be tracking. Figure at least 50 yards. I've never used the .357, but I've used the 240 gr Remington semi jacketed hollow point in .44 Magnum successfully. Mostly quartering shots, never had a bullet exit. I'd think the 158 gr version would be a reasonable choice if the sectional density is similar. I ran the numbers: .44/240= 0.186, .357/158=178. Should work if we're talking normal people size deer, BUT choose your shots carefully.

 

[Bald1]

Old Corp, I agree on the handgun hunting sub forum. As to the 357 I’ve killed several NY and WVa deer with my 6” 686. I had an Xtra 2” of barrel so I’m sure it helped velocity. I used 158gr American Eagle JSP. All lethal one shot kills. Actually had a couple pass throughs when hitting behind shoulder (think double lung shot). All were killed inside 50 yds. I used to limit myself to bow ranges. The .357 was never my primary gun in the field. I carried it in case an opportunity presented itself. Having also used a 6” 629 with similar Winchester load I can tell you there’s no comparison in the 2. The 44 is head and shoulders above in performance.

 

[Skeet 028]

I have only shot one deer ith a 357...I was not really happy with the performance. It was with a Fed 158 ge SP. 5 inch Pre 27. I have however shot a few with my Contender 357 Max. The bullet I used was a 180 gr FN FMJ as they call it. The bullet really did not expand...but every one passed completely through the deer. None traveled more than about 10-15 yards. A good bullet is important but the complete pass through with a pretty much full caliber hole makes 'em work pretty well. Just my opinion so take it for what you want...with a 4 inch 357...keep the ranges short and the bullet weight up for good penetration. I shot moose elk and bears with my 4 inch 41 mag. Heavy(for caliber) WFNGC bullets got complete pass through front to back on two animals and DRT. but yardages were short

 

[Nick B]

Just a FYI. Everglades is 10 minutes from my house and they use to have a walk in store . They don’t make anything. The bullets they sell are repackaged Zero Bullets . Much cheaper to just buy direct and the price includes shipping.
Roze Distribution, Inc. - Zero Bullets and Ammunition .

 

[Eddietruett]

Consider the 185gr Lead HP from GT Bullets. I have heard of sever great results from other hunters. I can only say they are devastating on a coyote at 75 yards. I got complete pass through with major expansion. Exit wound was impressive. The only downside is sighting in. With a max charge of 2400 I get leading. After about 10-15 rounds accuracy falls off because these are soft lead. For the first 5-6 shots, accuracy was fantastic in my 8 3/8’ Model 686

 

[duane_wade]

I've shot at least 9 or 10 Indiana whitetail with my Dan Wesson 15-2 sporting a 6" barrel shooting 158 gr XTP handloads and didn't have to track any of them more than 50 yards. Off of a rest this pistol will shoot 2½c groups at 85 yards (my range at home). I also use a scope on this pistol when hunting and make sure that I've got a good rest to shoot from even when shooting at less than 30 yards so I don't have go traipsing all over the farm to find my deer. As always, Shot placement is critical and even more so with a handgun. Many folks think the .357 is not for deer but I'll continue to use mine until I can't hunt anymore.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I would hold off on using the HP , since you want deep penetration,

In my 6" 357, I used the old Speer SJSP 160 gr bullet to take Nevada Mule deer.
With your 4" barrel, the 180 FP with a max load and best grouping, with your targets at 50 yards or less.........
should work for you.

A standing, broad side shot is needed, for best results.
Don't hit the shoulder bone or go near the Hams !!

Will you have someone with a rifle as back up?

Good luck.

 

[Bald1]

Whitetail are not particularly hard to kill. A broadside shot in the “vitals” will result in a pass through with many handgun calibers. I always found it interesting that a 357 on a 250lb man was devastating. But on a 150lb whitetail it’s only borderline. A bad shot is a bad shot. And range matters. But they are a thin skinned mammal.

 

[Rpg]

I’ve killed some mule deer here in Colorado with 357 magnum out of a Ruger Blackhawk and then a Colt Python. This was in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.

I used hand loaded 158 gr.hard cast swc,, Speer half jacket 160 gr swc (both loaded with up to 16 gr of 2400) and commercial 158 gr soft point jacketed ammunition. I used open sights.

They all worked about the same with heart/lung/shoulder shots (no one shot drop in their tracks but no long chases). They all produced through and through exit holes and good blood trails.
I keep distances to no more than 50 yards (about the distance across an American football field).

In the 80’s I discovered the Colt 1911 in 45acp. It does everything a 357 can do and in a handier shape and size, so I can’t comment on the contemporary 357 projectiles.

 

[GypsmJim]

30 years hunting with a 12 ga. EVERY single deer I shot dropped in its tracks.

Then, they legalized handguns. The next few deer I harvested were with a .45 Colt Blackhawk with Ruger Only loads. Every one of those deer ran 50 yards or so.

In recent years I switched to a single shot Encore loaded with .308 Winchester SST Hornady bullets. Back to drop in tracks.

I have read about the opinions for and against a .357. My choice is not to use one for deer, period.

 

[OKFC05]

I have used Rem .357 158gr SP ammo in a 6" 686 iron sight and an 8 3/8" 686 with 2X Leupold for 40 yr on the smallish sw Oklahoma deer, in addition to annual deer hunts with primitive bow and iron sight Hawken muzzleloader. I also taught the primitive weapon sections of Oklahoma Hunter Safety for over 20 years.

My personal experience with handguns and primitive weapons deer hunting is very good. You certainly can find out if you are a hunter, or a casual shooter who wants to kill a deer at the longest range and with the least effort expended learning the animal's habits.

Hunting with a primitive bow requires learning how to do the "second hunt" to track even a well-hit deer the 50 to 80 yds through heavy cover, as in the McAlester Army Depot hunts. Once this is learned, it takes the pressure off being obsessed with "dropping it in its tracks", which usually is best done with a heavy bullet through the spine.

A lot depends on the attitude of the hunter. The distance at which you can hit a paper plate EVERY TIME with your .357, or whatever, is the max distance you should shoot at a deer, when the deer is turned for an effective shot. Our 100 # whitetails aren't that hard to kill with a well-placed shot.

 

[Yendor 1]

Oldie, those Fed 158s are all you need.

Ive killed a lot deer with .357s handguns, starting in 1986 here in Indiana. For a long time, a 6 inch 686 was the only gun I had. I was a much younger man with 2 little boys. There wasn’t a whole lot of “gun money” back then. Most of those deer were killed while I was in a tree stand.

Almost all of my shots were under 45 yards. The deer were not spooked. I had plenty of time to make good shots. I never lost a deer to a 357. I only recovered one bullet; There was another hunter 100 yards away, and I purposely shot that one in the shoulder. I’ll never do that again.

The .357 is way underrated, mostly by guys that have never used one, or don’t know how to use one. I don’t take iffy shots. Like I said, I never lost a .357ed deer. My 4.25 inch 2020 Python shoots every bit as well as my old 6 inch 686. My new Garmin says the new Python shoots faster by 75 fps, as well.

My favorite shot is the top of the heart. That shot wrecks all the plumbing. They lose hydraulic pressure fast. They pass out and shut down.

Get a new Ruger made Marlin 357 to keep your Python company. A buddy showed up here a week ago with one. It’s awesome.

 

[Bald1]

I can add this. Before rifles were allowed in NY it was shotgun or handgun. I was once field dressing a doe that I had taken with my slug gun. It was resting against a tree about 6-8 ft from me. I hear something coming and look up to see a 3pt buck coming. As it got closer I could see its front leg was basically shot off. I pulled my 4” model 10-5 from my holster and put one behind his shoulder at about 20’yds. Full pass through. Deer dropped within sight. Seems as though I had it loaded with 129gr partition gold rounds. It was my dads gun and that was my first year hunting without him. That’s why I was carrying it.

 

[max503]

I don’t take iffy shots.

“DON’T FIRE TILL YOU SEE THE WHITES OF THEIR EYES”

 

[Old Corp]

Thanks for replies so far.

Just for background, I handgun hunt with the methodology and self-imposed limitations of a bowhunter. I 'pass' on many shots that are not optimal - and don't let it worry me too much, 'cuz well, after that trigger is pulled the nice cool morning with coffee and quiet is all over and real work lies ahead.
I've taken plenty of deer with various .41 Mag, .44 Mag and .45 Colt. (I did miss an easy shot this past Fall with a Colt Delta Elite 10mm - shot just under a large Doe)

The only deer I've taken with a .357 was with a Rossi 16" carbine, using 140 gr Barnes TSX HP's. That Buck was DRT at 50 yards.

So, today loaded 50 rounds of 'hopeful hunting ammo', with 25 rounds being the Hornady 158 XTP and half the Everglades 158 gr. JHP over an upper-level charge of AA-9 and CCI SP-M primer.

Gonna see how this does, and if it does well at 25 yards, my personal goal for any handgun and load I hunt with is to keep an entire cylinder or magazine on a paper 6" dessert plate at 50 yards.
- That has always worked thus far.

Also, digging through my ammo stash, found a few 20 round boxes of Speer .357 Mag. 170 gr. 'DCSP', which IIRC is 'Dual Core Soft Point'. They are jacketed, with a VERY broad, flat exposed lead meplat.
I'd prefer using my own loads, but we'll see how these do.

 

[Greyman50]

Back when I first got my 6” Mdl. 19 ( late 70s)I loaded the Speer half jacketed H.P.s. Deer in S.E. Va. are not that big and I shot a good sized doe ( during legal doe season) in the neck, DRT, dropped like a sack of bricks. That was some of the best venison have eaten.

 

[Skeet 028]

like many of the replies I have always done handgun shooting at or under my bow hunt ranges. Only 1 deer shot over 40 yards with a bow...in the open in a picked corn field. All were shot with a Bear Super Kodiac recurve except one with a Bear Alaskan compound. Otherwise 10-35 yards with a bow or handgun. One elk with a 45 auto at 40 ft. three shots pop pop pop. plop. Someone said something about 250 pound person and 150 lb deer. Even with a killing shot a deer can take off with a hole in their heart and go much farther than the average man can with any life threatening injury...or so it seems to me

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Not counting multiple deer I have destroyed after automobile collisions, requiring no more than a careful shot with .38 Special at close range, I have also taken several Colorado mule deer using .357 magnum revolvers.

Southern whitetails are half (or less) the size and weight of our local mule deer (typically 150-250 lbs. live weight), so close comparisons are difficult. The deer I used to take in Georgia, Alabama, and Florida were all much smaller.

I use my own hard-cast bullets, either 158 SWC or 150 SWC-HP. Several commercial casting companies will provide comparable products. My .357 magnum load is 7.0 grains Unique (about 1/2 grain below published maximum) and estimated velocity from a 4" revolver at 1100-1150 FPS.

My experiences with Colorado mule deer have been within 50 yards, usual heart-lung shot placement. Complete penetration side-to-side has been most common; I did recover one HP bullet that severed a rib on entry, fully passing through both lungs, lodging just under the hide on the off-side (front portion sheared off, remainder weighing ~130 grains or so). Every animal went down after a brief run, and none required a second shot.

I've taken quite a few others with rifles, usually .30-06, .308, .300 Savage, .30-30. Not much visible difference in wound effects seen during the field dressing process. The hunter with sufficient skill and patience to put the shot where it needs to be will get it done with a .357 just as well.

Personally, I'd rather have a heavier bullet that reliably gets deep into the vitals than a lighter expanding slug that goes to pieces on a rib or shoulder bone.

 

[Forrest r]

I've taken 1 deer with a 6" bbl'd s&w 586 357mag, years ago. A +/-40yd neck shot dropped a +/- #200 doe. I used a cast lyman 160gr rn 358311 and a full load of h110

6" accuracy @ 50yds is caveman simple to do/achieve.

If you have the time you might consider testing different bullets along with different powders. Not all bullets are created equal. With that 4" bbl your bullet selection can and will make a huge difference.

Coated bullets tend to have higher velocities than their cast/plated/jacketed counterparts. Add to that the bullet's design will also make a huge difference.

I'm sure you have reloading manuals laying around. Here's a link a to lyman (48th) reloading manual. It has jacketed and cast reloading data in it.
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Ma...ding Handbook - 48th Edition - 2002 - ocr.pdf

I quit using store bought jacketed decades ago but I did do a lot of testing with them in different bbl lengths in the 38spl's & 357mags. I still do testing every couple of years. The last testing I used these 8 bullets to test 357mag loads.

I used 2400, h110 & mp-300 powders, mag primers and firearms with 4" (2x), 6" (3x), 8" & 10" bbl's.

Same loads yet the same 4 bullets kept outperforming the other four. There was as much as an 80fps difference between bullets. 80fps might not sound like a lot but it is.

Myself, I always test the bullet/load I'm going to use at the "max" yardage I plan on taking a shot. If your "max" shot is 50yds you'll loose +/- 100fps off your load @ 50yds. Poor bullet selection and loss of velocity due to yardage make huge differences in the performance of your load.

I aways test my loads at the max distance I plan of shooting. Typically I use wetpack. Wetpack is nothing more than newspapers taped together (7 to 12" bundles), put in a cooler & then the cooler filled with water and left to sit overnight. I put the wetpack out at the yardage I plan on testing and test the bullets. They say that 1" of wetpack is equal to 1 1/2" of ballistics jell. Don't know about all that but the wetpack definitely gives positive feedback. Testing home cast 158gr hp's/1500fps (muzzle velocity) @ 50yds. All 6 shots went thru the wetpack.

A couple years back I made swaged some jacketed hp's 44cal bullets to deer hunt with.

Found an accurate load with them in a 6" bbl'd s&w 626 @ 80yds. 80yds was the max distance I planned on shooting. I ran the velocity/bullet thru a ballistics calculator and found that @ 80yds that load/bullet combo would be doing +/- 1100fps. So I tested that load @ 80yds in the wetpack, impressive. Then I loaded up some +/-1100fps loads using a non-mag powder and retesting the same bullets @ 25yds.

Easier on me and the firearm and still getting excellent results.

Anyway you might consider testing different bullets/loads for performance along with accuracy. It isn't that hard to staple a target to bundle of wetpack and test both accuracy and performance @ the same time.

 

[Bald1]

like many of the replies I have always done handgun shooting at or under my bow hunt ranges. Only 1 deer shot over 40 yards with a bow...in the open in a picked corn field. All were shot with a Bear Super Kodiac recurve except one with a Bear Alaskan compound. Otherwise 10-35 yards with a bow or handgun. One elk with a 45 auto at 40 ft. three shots pop pop pop. plop. Someone said something about 250 pound person and 150 lb deer. Even with a killing shot a deer can take off with a hole in their heart and go much farther than the average man can with any life threatening injury...or so it seems to me

Deer will run regardless of what you shoot them with. You just never know what they’re going to do. I hunted with a 12ga slug gun for almost 20 yrs. They sometimes run 100 yds when both lungs or heart was obliterated. I’ve shot them with a 7mm Mag at 50 yds and they run. If a hunter can’t track a hit deer he should stay home. Regardless of hunting implement used.

 

[Old Corp]

Forrest r - thanks, great post.

- I've always been interested in the process of swaging and using spent brass for the jacket, just never knew anyone who actually did it.
My era of reloading goes back to the old C-H (?) swage presses that used purchased 1/2 and/or 3/4 jackets, lead wire, etc. - but again, never owned that gear or tried it. And honestly, at this stage, my loading bench is crowded enough already to invest in a swaging outfit, which I imagine is pretty expensive.

I used to cast A LOT, much in part due to having a free endless supply of used lead wheelweights. Busy life pursuits came along, as did the 'net and ability to simply 'click' to get quality cast bullets, so all my casting gear is stored away and last saw light of day in the late 90's.

For cast HP's, I've used GT bullets and using a S&W M25-5 4" .45 Colt took a large (for here) Doe at 25 yards with the 250 gr. LSWC-HP.
High shoulder hit, DRT.

I bought a quantity of GT Bullets in .358", 160 gr LSWC-HP and I'm sure they're good quality but a unique problem surfaced. When loaded and crimped in the actual crimp groove, the COAL proved too long for my .357's that were N frame, along with the Python and over-long to feed in my Rossi M92 lever carbine. K frame guns (and IIRC, my Ruger S6)
actually have longer cylinders and the COAL on this loaded round is OK.

Of course the solution is to seat deeper and crimp above the shoulder - but this also changes available powder space and should alter any load data by some degree - just don't know how much. That's a project I intend to work on. If they shoot and perform OK, I'm fine with using those as opposed to JHP/JSP bullets.

The GT .358" 185 gr RNF-HP I mentioned in the OP also poses a similar issue - when loaded and using the crimp groove, the COAL is all but exactly the length of the cylinder. The slightest 'crimp jump' from an adjoining chamber would tie the gun up. And there IS no actual shoulder to allow deeper seating and crimping. Suppose I could try a tad deeper seating and taper-crimping.....

Anyway - 'first world problems', LOL. We'll figure this one out - just a lot of variables to try. Guess that's why so many here may fall into the 'handloading geek' category.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

When you say "smallish" deer, what kind of weight are you talking about?

First off, the deer isn't gonna drop at the shot, you're gonna be tracking. Figure at least 50 yards. I've never used the .357, but I've used the 240 gr Remington semi jacketed hollow point in .44 Magnum successfully. Mostly quartering shots, never had a bullet exit. I'd think the 158 gr version would be a reasonable choice if the sectional density is similar. I ran the numbers: .44/240= 0.186, .357/158=178. Should work if we're talking normal people size deer, BUT choose your shots carefully.

Why don't your deer drop at the shot? How many have you killed with a handgun?? I've killed 2 with a 4 in mdl 28........4 with a mdl 629...one with a 1911 45acp and one with a 2 in mdl 34........All dropped at the shot.

 

[Drm50]

Never kilt a deer with 357 that I can remember. Not caliber I would carry for deer. I have used Hornady XTPs in 44 for years. Only thing I can add is the ratio of expansion in the big 3 manfs. of JHPs. The Speer 240 JHP is hardest, Sierra is probably best all around game shooter and the Hornady XTP is softest and is my choice for deer and smaller stuff.

 

[Bald1]

Why don't your deer drop at the shot? How many have you killed with a handgun?? I've killed 2 with a 4 in mdl 28........4 with a mdl 629...one with a 1911 45acp and one with a 2 in mdl 34........All dropped at the shot.

I think it’s a matter of where you hit them. I’ve noticed a shoulder shot directly through the scapula will drop them. And obviously a neck or spine shot will too. I try not to hit those areas as it tends to damage meat……. But more importantly I want to hear the story behind the 2” 34????????? Lol

 

[Eddie Southgate]

158 grain XTP's or the Keith bullet in solid or HP if you want to go with cast. Both work equally well in my limited experience on deer and hogs. I prefer my .44's to the .357 but I have killed some game with my pap's old Flat Top Blackhawk and it will get the job done if you do your part. I use a heavy dose of 2400 with both bullets.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I don't know, the .357 might be a little under gunned?

Around 1958, my father went up into the hills of Redding Calif.
and picked up a revolver, that had just killed a deer, a few months befor his arrival.
The lady that shot the deer from her porch, told him it was in good working order
and he bought it, to add to his gun collection, after hearing about the weapon from, fellow hunters.

I now own this revolver and show it to friends and tell them that this is the real deal.
It is an original Black powder, Navy Colt in 36 caliber, that uses round lead balls, to do its work.

Placement, is King.

 

[biku324]

Kinda wish we had a 'Handgun Hunting' sub here...

Tried some factory Federal 'American Eagle' .357's 158 gr. JSP and they almost cloverleafed at 25 yards from a rest.
Kind of offends me when my carefully put-together handloads are so easily outshot by mere factory ammo.

Thanks all.

I had really good luck with Winchester 158 grain JHP component bullets and Nosler JSP in 158 grain on small Ozark whitetail does show with a Marlin carbine. I always use 13.0 grains of 2400 or 16.2 grains of Lil Gun. Passed through and through almost broadside and the does died in place. Not sure if that is helpful.