.357 bullets for deer - experience?

[LoboGunLeather]

Not counting multiple deer I have destroyed after automobile collisions, requiring no more than a careful shot with .38 Special at close range, I have also taken several Colorado mule deer using .357 magnum revolvers.

Southern whitetails are half (or less) the size and weight of our local mule deer (typically 150-250 lbs. live weight), so close comparisons are difficult. The deer I used to take in Georgia, Alabama, and Florida were all much smaller.

I use my own hard-cast bullets, either 158 SWC or 150 SWC-HP. Several commercial casting companies will provide comparable products. My .357 magnum load is 7.0 grains Unique (about 1/2 grain below published maximum) and estimated velocity from a 4" revolver at 1100-1150 FPS.

My experiences with Colorado mule deer have been within 50 yards, usual heart-lung shot placement. Complete penetration side-to-side has been most common; I did recover one HP bullet that severed a rib on entry, fully passing through both lungs, lodging just under the hide on the off-side (front portion sheared off, remainder weighing ~130 grains or so). Every animal went down after a brief run, and none required a second shot.

I've taken quite a few others with rifles, usually .30-06, .308, .300 Savage, .30-30. Not much visible difference in wound effects seen during the field dressing process. The hunter with sufficient skill and patience to put the shot where it needs to be will get it done with a .357 just as well.

Personally, I'd rather have a heavier bullet that reliably gets deep into the vitals than a lighter expanding slug that goes to pieces on a rib or shoulder bone.

 

[Forrest r]

I've taken 1 deer with a 6" bbl'd s&w 586 357mag, years ago. A +/-40yd neck shot dropped a +/- #200 doe. I used a cast lyman 160gr rn 358311 and a full load of h110

6" accuracy @ 50yds is caveman simple to do/achieve.

If you have the time you might consider testing different bullets along with different powders. Not all bullets are created equal. With that 4" bbl your bullet selection can and will make a huge difference.

Coated bullets tend to have higher velocities than their cast/plated/jacketed counterparts. Add to that the bullet's design will also make a huge difference.

I'm sure you have reloading manuals laying around. Here's a link a to lyman (48th) reloading manual. It has jacketed and cast reloading data in it.
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Ma...ding Handbook - 48th Edition - 2002 - ocr.pdf

I quit using store bought jacketed decades ago but I did do a lot of testing with them in different bbl lengths in the 38spl's & 357mags. I still do testing every couple of years. The last testing I used these 8 bullets to test 357mag loads.

I used 2400, h110 & mp-300 powders, mag primers and firearms with 4" (2x), 6" (3x), 8" & 10" bbl's.

Same loads yet the same 4 bullets kept outperforming the other four. There was as much as an 80fps difference between bullets. 80fps might not sound like a lot but it is.

Myself, I always test the bullet/load I'm going to use at the "max" yardage I plan on taking a shot. If your "max" shot is 50yds you'll loose +/- 100fps off your load @ 50yds. Poor bullet selection and loss of velocity due to yardage make huge differences in the performance of your load.

I aways test my loads at the max distance I plan of shooting. Typically I use wetpack. Wetpack is nothing more than newspapers taped together (7 to 12" bundles), put in a cooler & then the cooler filled with water and left to sit overnight. I put the wetpack out at the yardage I plan on testing and test the bullets. They say that 1" of wetpack is equal to 1 1/2" of ballistics jell. Don't know about all that but the wetpack definitely gives positive feedback. Testing home cast 158gr hp's/1500fps (muzzle velocity) @ 50yds. All 6 shots went thru the wetpack.

A couple years back I made swaged some jacketed hp's 44cal bullets to deer hunt with.

Found an accurate load with them in a 6" bbl'd s&w 626 @ 80yds. 80yds was the max distance I planned on shooting. I ran the velocity/bullet thru a ballistics calculator and found that @ 80yds that load/bullet combo would be doing +/- 1100fps. So I tested that load @ 80yds in the wetpack, impressive. Then I loaded up some +/-1100fps loads using a non-mag powder and retesting the same bullets @ 25yds.

Easier on me and the firearm and still getting excellent results.

Anyway you might consider testing different bullets/loads for performance along with accuracy. It isn't that hard to staple a target to bundle of wetpack and test both accuracy and performance @ the same time.

 

[Bald1]

like many of the replies I have always done handgun shooting at or under my bow hunt ranges. Only 1 deer shot over 40 yards with a bow...in the open in a picked corn field. All were shot with a Bear Super Kodiac recurve except one with a Bear Alaskan compound. Otherwise 10-35 yards with a bow or handgun. One elk with a 45 auto at 40 ft. three shots pop pop pop. plop. Someone said something about 250 pound person and 150 lb deer. Even with a killing shot a deer can take off with a hole in their heart and go much farther than the average man can with any life threatening injury...or so it seems to me

Deer will run regardless of what you shoot them with. You just never know what they’re going to do. I hunted with a 12ga slug gun for almost 20 yrs. They sometimes run 100 yds when both lungs or heart was obliterated. I’ve shot them with a 7mm Mag at 50 yds and they run. If a hunter can’t track a hit deer he should stay home. Regardless of hunting implement used.

 

[Old Corp]

Forrest r - thanks, great post.

- I've always been interested in the process of swaging and using spent brass for the jacket, just never knew anyone who actually did it.
My era of reloading goes back to the old C-H (?) swage presses that used purchased 1/2 and/or 3/4 jackets, lead wire, etc. - but again, never owned that gear or tried it. And honestly, at this stage, my loading bench is crowded enough already to invest in a swaging outfit, which I imagine is pretty expensive.

I used to cast A LOT, much in part due to having a free endless supply of used lead wheelweights. Busy life pursuits came along, as did the 'net and ability to simply 'click' to get quality cast bullets, so all my casting gear is stored away and last saw light of day in the late 90's.

For cast HP's, I've used GT bullets and using a S&W M25-5 4" .45 Colt took a large (for here) Doe at 25 yards with the 250 gr. LSWC-HP.
High shoulder hit, DRT.

I bought a quantity of GT Bullets in .358", 160 gr LSWC-HP and I'm sure they're good quality but a unique problem surfaced. When loaded and crimped in the actual crimp groove, the COAL proved too long for my .357's that were N frame, along with the Python and over-long to feed in my Rossi M92 lever carbine. K frame guns (and IIRC, my Ruger S6)
actually have longer cylinders and the COAL on this loaded round is OK.

Of course the solution is to seat deeper and crimp above the shoulder - but this also changes available powder space and should alter any load data by some degree - just don't know how much. That's a project I intend to work on. If they shoot and perform OK, I'm fine with using those as opposed to JHP/JSP bullets.

The GT .358" 185 gr RNF-HP I mentioned in the OP also poses a similar issue - when loaded and using the crimp groove, the COAL is all but exactly the length of the cylinder. The slightest 'crimp jump' from an adjoining chamber would tie the gun up. And there IS no actual shoulder to allow deeper seating and crimping. Suppose I could try a tad deeper seating and taper-crimping.....

Anyway - 'first world problems', LOL. We'll figure this one out - just a lot of variables to try. Guess that's why so many here may fall into the 'handloading geek' category.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

When you say "smallish" deer, what kind of weight are you talking about?

First off, the deer isn't gonna drop at the shot, you're gonna be tracking. Figure at least 50 yards. I've never used the .357, but I've used the 240 gr Remington semi jacketed hollow point in .44 Magnum successfully. Mostly quartering shots, never had a bullet exit. I'd think the 158 gr version would be a reasonable choice if the sectional density is similar. I ran the numbers: .44/240= 0.186, .357/158=178. Should work if we're talking normal people size deer, BUT choose your shots carefully.

Why don't your deer drop at the shot? How many have you killed with a handgun?? I've killed 2 with a 4 in mdl 28........4 with a mdl 629...one with a 1911 45acp and one with a 2 in mdl 34........All dropped at the shot.

 

[Drm50]

Never kilt a deer with 357 that I can remember. Not caliber I would carry for deer. I have used Hornady XTPs in 44 for years. Only thing I can add is the ratio of expansion in the big 3 manfs. of JHPs. The Speer 240 JHP is hardest, Sierra is probably best all around game shooter and the Hornady XTP is softest and is my choice for deer and smaller stuff.

 

[Bald1]

Why don't your deer drop at the shot? How many have you killed with a handgun?? I've killed 2 with a 4 in mdl 28........4 with a mdl 629...one with a 1911 45acp and one with a 2 in mdl 34........All dropped at the shot.

I think it’s a matter of where you hit them. I’ve noticed a shoulder shot directly through the scapula will drop them. And obviously a neck or spine shot will too. I try not to hit those areas as it tends to damage meat……. But more importantly I want to hear the story behind the 2” 34????????? Lol

 

[Eddie Southgate]

158 grain XTP's or the Keith bullet in solid or HP if you want to go with cast. Both work equally well in my limited experience on deer and hogs. I prefer my .44's to the .357 but I have killed some game with my pap's old Flat Top Blackhawk and it will get the job done if you do your part. I use a heavy dose of 2400 with both bullets.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I don't know, the .357 might be a little under gunned?

Around 1958, my father went up into the hills of Redding Calif.
and picked up a revolver, that had just killed a deer, a few months befor his arrival.
The lady that shot the deer from her porch, told him it was in good working order
and he bought it, to add to his gun collection, after hearing about the weapon from, fellow hunters.

I now own this revolver and show it to friends and tell them that this is the real deal.
It is an original Black powder, Navy Colt in 36 caliber, that uses round lead balls, to do its work.

Placement, is King.

 

[biku324]

Kinda wish we had a 'Handgun Hunting' sub here...

Tried some factory Federal 'American Eagle' .357's 158 gr. JSP and they almost cloverleafed at 25 yards from a rest.
Kind of offends me when my carefully put-together handloads are so easily outshot by mere factory ammo.

Thanks all.

I had really good luck with Winchester 158 grain JHP component bullets and Nosler JSP in 158 grain on small Ozark whitetail does show with a Marlin carbine. I always use 13.0 grains of 2400 or 16.2 grains of Lil Gun. Passed through and through almost broadside and the does died in place. Not sure if that is helpful.

 

[mtgianni]

I shot a mule deer buck in 1985 with 125 gr jacketed bullet. I was 40-50 feet above it on a ridgetop, the bullet hit between the shoulder blades and it remains the most blood shot animal I have ever dressed.
I have taken several deer with a 185 gr rf bullet but they have been launched with a Rossi 92 at much faster than revolver speeds. Usually down within 20 feet. I would trust it over the 150's.

 

[Drm50]

I don’t know where the 38s-357s were hiding. I’ve killed at least one deer with about everything but 25acp-32acp& 38/380s. What has always puzzled me is gun scribes will write up a pistol as a lightning bolt killer of everything known to man but put it in a carbine and it’s barely got power to push bullet out the barrel. That is according to them.
That brings me to 357 & 357max both I consider light for deer but you have to consider the Win 350 Legend. It’s not much different than 357s
but the hopala going with it is magnum. If one is going to sit on a stand and wait for a shot all this bullet stuff is a waste. If you are capable of hitting the zone it doesn’t matter what you use. It’s whole different story if you are stalking and shooting jumped deer. It will be close range and flat out speeds. That’s where knock down comes in. It doesn’t matter pistol or rifle. The big argument on 223/ 5.56 as deer cartridge is subject to same rules. Off the stump it don’t matter, a 22Lr gets the job done. Stalking more than not involves shooting running game and one should be toting a cartridge that is up to the task.
Some say it’s unethical to shoot running game. Makes me wonder how much hunting have they actually done.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

My experience with the .357 on deer is limited to three kills. All succumbed to a well-placed 173 grain 358429 (Keith's bullet) over 14 grains of AA-9. None of them went more than 10 steps. Have shot 0 deer with any jacketed .357 bullet. I'll admit to questioning the above mentioned bullet for a quick kill. I knew they would drop and die within a reasonable distance, but have to say I was pleasantly surprised at how rapidly they went down. I guess my takeaway is that a good wide nose cast swc at top load velocity from a .357 is not to be taken lightly. Two of these kills were from a 6" pre-27 the other from a 4 5/8" Ruger flattop.

 

[K Frame Keith]

I know OP is discussing handgun hunting, but how about the ballistics of the .357 out of a rifle length barrel? Is anyone familiar with the results of the handgun vs. rifle ballistics of the .357?

 

[Old Corp]

I know OP is discussing handgun hunting, but how about the ballistics of the .357 out of a rifle length barrel? Is anyone familiar with the results of the handgun vs. rifle ballistics of the .357?

I had mentioned that up 'til the current, the only deer I'd taken with anything in .357 was with a handy little Rossi 92 16" carbine. It was a 6 pt. Whitetail buck facing head-on at about 50 yards. Shot it center-of-chest with a Barnes factory .357, 140 gr TSX all-copper HP. He did a back-flip and was DRT. Seem to recall reading somewhere that this load would do around ~1900 fps out of a carbine or rifle length barrel.

Dressing out the buck inside a lighted building that evening (it was a late afternoon shot), showed internal damage consistent with very many deer I'd dressed shot with various common centerfire rounds such as .270/7-08/ .308, etc. I was very surprised.

There was no exit and I looked hard for the spent bullet, but must've missed it in the guts somewhere - never did find it (and was tired!)

So, one deer down DRT may not mean much statistically - but I wouldn't take the capabilities of a .357 carbine lightly inside 100-125 yards with someone who knows how to shoot.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I put down two deer that were hit by cars. Model 19 four inch with 38 Special +P 125 grain JHP. Average deer and were 125# or so.

 

[Yendor357]

357 Mag, 158 JHPs out of my Marlin 1894 are doing 1800 fps per my Garmin Xero. From a tree stand that combo is very lethal. You have to watch where you hit them because they’ll ruin a lot of meat if you hit something solid.

I’m a big fan of the Ruger made Marlin, and Marlin 1894s. Add a peep sight for easier accuracy than the semi buck horn; not as much bulk as a scope. My old Marlin with no safety and a Lyman 66LA Will put 3 shots under 2 inches at 100 yards if you do your part. I think more accurate than the 44s, but that could just be me. Short, Light, Deadly. Don’t let those Red Rider looks fool you.

 

[Old Corp]

I’m a big fan of the Ruger made Marlin, and Marlin 1894s. Add a peep sight for easier accuracy than the semi buck horn; not as much bulk as a scope. My old Marlin with no safety and a Lyman 66LA Will put 3 shots under 2 inches at 100 yards if you do your part. I think more accurate than the 44s, but that could just be me. Short, Light, Deadly. Don’t let those Red Rider looks fool you.

Much could be said of the Rossi M92. I'm no fan of factory 'buckhorn' sights and find them pretty crude. I changed my 16" Rossi to a peep rear and small Hi-Viz front and the combo is hard to beat.
Quite a bit longer sight radius, better in low light, and pretty fast acquisition . Overall, the Marlin is better quality - but other than fencepost-grade wood, I've been quite pleased my little Brazilian levergun.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

I don't know, the .357 might be a little under gunned?

Around 1958, my father went up into the hills of Redding Calif.
and picked up a revolver, that had just killed a deer, a few months befor his arrival.
The lady that shot the deer from her porch, told him it was in good working order
and he bought it, to add to his gun collection, after hearing about the weapon from, fellow hunters.

I now own this revolver and show it to friends and tell them that this is the real deal.
It is an original Black powder, Navy Colt in 36 caliber, that uses round lead balls, to do its work.

Placement, is King.

Elmer Keith would tell you that a round lead ball was a most excellent killer.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I think it’s a matter of where you hit them. I’ve noticed a shoulder shot directly through the scapula will drop them. And obviously a neck or spine shot will too. I try not to hit those areas as it tends to damage meat……. But more importantly I want to hear the story behind the 2” 34????????? Lol

Was coming home one evening(daylight)and bumped a big doe with the right front corner of my Mustang. She pinwheeled into the ditch and stood there dazed or hurt. I shot her just above the eyes in her forehead......Dropped like a rock.