Hi Guys, I got a question. My OAL for 124gr calls for 1.150 and I accidently seated the bullets to 1.130 to 1.134. The powder I am using is IMR PB and the max load is 4.4gr and I got it to 4.3gr. However, the IMR seems anemic compared to others.

My seating is it unsafe? The recipe calls for 1.150 and I am at 1.130

If your load was 3 or 4 tenths below the maximum I'd say no problem, however at 1 tenth under the maximum I'd pull the bullets and start over. Because while the odds are likely in favor of this being perfectly safe if it's not you'll learn an expensive lesson. Since I've already learned some expensive lessons I now go out of my way to avoid learning any more.

.02 and near max, pull all of them and start over again.
You still owe us coffee

__________________
it just needs more voltage

thanks! What I am fearful is I may have done a previous batch with the current load but I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary like extra recoil. Hopefully I did not damage my guns.

The one gun I did shoot a lot of these if I did was my CZ Scorpion EVO. I don't think you can hurt that pistol however as it is pretty darn big for a pistol.

The previous posts are from far more experienced folks than I so take their advice. I'm asking/answering in hopes of learning along with you.

When you say your OAL should be 1.150, is that the exact bullet your using from the recipe? Did you workup to 4.3g of powder? If so, what was your OAL for those loads. I would think the more important comparison would be to those loads as you built up the ladder.

Again, my response is as much to test myself as to answer the question.

__________________
Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I didn't work up the load because PB IMR is really weak and underpowered. When using midrange gun would barely cycle. Power pistol is much better but yes overall length I am referring to

Like smokindog, I have a few questions too, but I hasten to add first, that it's alway better to error on the side of caution when in doubt & pull them & start over.

You don't say, but I assume it's 9mm, right?

You don't say what brand, & type, of 124gr bullet it is: JHP, FMJ, lead, plated?

I'm guessing you got the 4.4gr/PB max from Hodgdon online?

If so, that's data for a Berry's 124gr plated hollow-base round nose bullet (HBRN). Is that what you're using?

If so, that load is listed at 32.8K psi. SAAMI 9mm std/+P max are 35/38K psi.

By my calculations, reducing the OAL (& seating depth) by .020" results in ~3.7% less case capacity.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

Most reloaders just don't understand oal & its affect on a given load. Your oal is gun & bullet specific. So are you using the exact or at least a close example of the bullet used in the data? If not, the oal is almost useless. Even if you are using the exact components, Ime, 0.020" isn't moving the pressure/vel meter enough to cause you an over pressure event, unless you are already at or over max.
I've run vel tests w/ WST, a bit slower, than pb, but valid. I didn't see significant vel increases until pushing over 0.030" deeper seating. Beyond that things got interesting. At 0.060" deeper, vel was almost 100fps higher, which = higher pressures too.
So it just depends. There is no universal min oal. Even SAAMI max isn't relavent with some bullets in some bbls. My new Springer 1911/9mm, with a 124gr tc, needs an oal at 1.040" max. Far shorter than what you often see In manuals. So I wouldn't be all In On a blanket statement that your oal is too long, it just depends. Faster powders react sooner to compression than slower powders. So it just depends.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The Lyman Cast Bullet manual lists a 120 gr RN at only 1.065 OAL
with 4.1 grs PB. You say your loads seem anemic. Pretty hard to
believe that they will go from anemic to dangerous because of .016-
.020 deeper seating. Besides, you say you probably already shot some
and couldn't tell the difference. If your bullets are cast you might have
a little bit of lube build up in your seating die. Try one shell and see.
I'm betting you won't even notice a difference.

I seated a few past what I was uncomfortable with. I put them in the puller and gently tapped them out a bit. If the crimp is not too tight you can get away with that. I just put a sharpie mark on the bullet where it goes into the case for refrence and tap it gently a few times. It doesn't take much to move the bullet .02 out. Then just run through the seat and crimp again to make everything uniform. The few I did this with worked fine. This was with .40 S&W and plated bullets.

__________________
Trucks and guns.

Guys, put 0.020" on your calipers. It isn't a lot. I am sure most are using diff brass, internal Volume diff can make a bigger diff than 0.020". Oal is important, but you have to keep perspective. Many early loading manuals didn't have the oal used. If your load is max, 0.020" will raise pressures some, but again, blindly following book oal isn't correct either. OAL is ALWAYS bullet & gun bbl specific.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

As it is unknown what recipe (bullet) the OP is using and unknown what bullet the OP actually has, it is all speculation and there is no definitive answer as to what the COL should be. FMJ?, Plated? Lead?

How about profile, flat nose, HP. RN? It's all about were is the weight of the bullet? In the base, the nose, How much of the bullet is seated in the case, not how much is outside it.

Also as Fred mentions it is all related to the barrel and bullet fit.

If I had to follow printed data for my CZ Custom and MBC 9mm RN bullets I would never shoot it. They need to be seated so short in order to chamber so the powder choice is critical as is the amount of powder.

Some may wonder why we freak out about fast powders (Titegroup, Bullseye) in high pressure rounds as opposed to slower burn powders which will not raise pressures as quickly or drastically.

If one can not interpolated or adjust for these variables, perhaps just use Trail Boss powder.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

+1;
with the above post..........
You have to see if the bullet data is with a "Ball" type design or a "HP" design.
My 124 GDHP is around .56" in height while my 124 Xtreme RN plated comes in around .59"........

that is +/- .03" right there.

Good luck getting your facts right and then deciding on what to do.... but it does not sound like a big problem, so far.

Except TB is really for lead bullets & doesn't tolerate compression well.
To show you how little OAL is understood. A long time reloader/shooter friend of mine asked me what I was loading for my new 1911/9mm. I showed him my bullet, HT coated LTC. He asked me about OAL, they are 1.040". He was emphatic I had to have measured wrong & my gun would go KB. When we compared his plated RN at 1.150" to mine, the obvious nose profile alone easily accounts for 0.080" of the diff. Really, 0.020" is a tiny amount, a little more than 1/64 of an inch, pretty *******g small.
You get a chronograph. Use starting data & plot the diff in vel as you seat deeper or longer. Then you can compare that to the book to get an idea how OAL will affect your load when changing powders. It is all just a guide. Each of you needs to determine what OAL works for you.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Can you get me some

__________________
Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I only mention TB as it is pretty hard to blow up anything with it and no load data is needed, just use the 75% fill formula!

Correct, do not compress it. I dislike the stuff and it smells like Cowboy Farts.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I use my CZ75 B barrel for drop testing all my 9mm reloads. If a finished round will plunk in that barrel, it will chamber fine in my other 9mm pistols, an M&P FS, a shield and a Beretta M9. I adjust seating depth a bit at a time until the bullet is .015" clear of the rifling lands. This usually gives me a bit longer than book OAL. This lets me worry less about loading (mostly Power Pistol) in the upper half of the range. This CZ really shines with such loads.

I went to the range and shot the ones I made that were 1.130. The length was supposed to be 1.150 and after shooting 6 rounds of 1.130 124gr 9mm Bayou Bullets and then 6 rounds of Critical Defense 115gr, the Critical Defense had more felt recoil. I then showed the empty cartridges to the gunsmith and he said my brass showed no signs of overpressure. I am confused because I thought the deeper seated bullet would have much more felt recoil

Well like FredJ said above, .020 is not a huge difference. Depending on the combination you are using you may or may not feel a difference in felt recoil. Different powder/bullet/gun combinations affect felt recoil much more than .020 oal and a chronograph is really the only way to detect a difference; even then .020 might be hard to definitively detect. Felt recoil is pretty subjective unless there is a substantial difference I think.

For example, I drive a truck that weighs 105,500lbs fully loaded, but without a scale I can't tell if it's a ton over or underweight. It's just not a big enough variance for me to detect the truck handles the same from my point of observation. However, if It's over more than that I can usually tell by looking at the tires and feeling the engine struggle.

I made the mistake of seating a considerably longer bullet to a shorter oal than it was supposed to be because I looked at the wrong line in the manual. The bullet just didn't look right it was way too deep in the case. That bullet got adjusted because it was .050 too short outside and .090ish too deep inside. The volume inside the case was considerably smaller and to me that looked like potential trouble so I adjusted it out. Also I was using a faster powder and the whole thing just looked too sketchy for my Shield.

__________________
Trucks and guns.

The various powders are like gears in a manual transmission.
If you try driving at freeway speeds in first, you blow your engine.
In fact, the engine will be shrapnel well before you achieve freeway speeds.

Recoil is a function of mass and velocity.
PB, being somewhere between park and reverse will not make much velocity.
As a result you will not have any significant recoil.
This does not mean that you are not making a lot of pressure.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

Still not the level of detail needed to match it to a recipe.

Trying to compare a commercial defense round to a handloaded target round isn't a realistic comparision.

.

__________________
Waiting for the break of day

Again, it depends on the powder used & vel generated. Not to be taken the wrong way, but what you feel, Really isn't telling you much. As noted earlier, 0.020" just doesn't move the pressure needle much. I am loading a 160gr bullet @ 1.040", vel is 820fps in my 5" 1911/9mm, recoil is stupid soft. So yet again, OAL is bullet & gun specific. Working up your load, oal is almost a non issue. This is where a chrono helps a reloaders a lot.
Fwiw, most gunsmiths know little about ammunition, reloading or how to determine pressures by looking at a fired case.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Looking at 9mm spent brass is like reading Tea Leaves. Unless it is blown apart it's not going to tell you a damn thing, Neither will looking at the primers unless it is so bad that they blew out.

Don't forget even loading 9mm to regular data the data is not at max (saami max pressure) and there is still a margin to go into the dreaded +P or +P+ range. Using a coated lead bullet you are going to have less pressure than a jacketed bullet to begin with.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I am still not sold on the lead bullet offers less pressure thing. That thought comes from being able to push a lead bullet down the bore more easily by hand than jacketed. That is malleability, I can pound a soft lead square peg into a round hole, not sure that is telling me anything though. IMO, the lead bullet has the same or slightly more pressure behind it as it seals the bore better. Someone needs to pressure test that theory.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Marathonunner
From reading your question I take it your loading 9MM, Max OAL 1.169 Min OAL 1.095 AVG is 1.132

I believe it is due to less neck tension of lead vs FMJ. In the case when the pressure builds up. Why is lead load data less than fmj?
But no, I have no printed proof or tests. One can use FMJ data for lead but not the other way around?

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

The load I am using as follows

PB IMR 4.3 is max and I have it at 4.2gr
Bayou 124gr round nose polymer coated
OAL 1.150 but had it at 1:30
Winchester blue box primers

Maybe. Anecdotal, but if I have to pull a bullet, it takes more force if it is lead vs jacketed. Lead bullets are 0.001" min larger, more malleable, seal the bore better = more pressure behind the bullet for higher vel with less powder. My theory anyway.
Many will say the lead bullet is slippery, but looking at friction values, lead has a higher coef of friction on steel. Moly costed bullets need more powder to gain the same Vel vs non moly, due to the bullet having less friction. Less friction, less pressure, less vel. All theory until someone plugs it into a pressure bbl.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Hodgdon web site
124 Gr @ 1.150
4 inch Bbl
PB 3.8 889 FPS
4.4 1023 FPS

This isn't the first time terror struck his heart without any real facts.

Reloading isn't Black or White, On or Off, Life or Death mystical science. It is common sense. If you can SEE a difference there might be a problem -- 9 MM doesn't work in 45 ACP, 0.030" difference in OAL for a mid-range load (and your loads are mid-range even if it is 0.2 grains less than max for the powder you're loading) requires a precision caliper -- something better than a yard stick. If these minor issues in life upset you than load ONE caliber with only ONE published powder, bullet, primer, case specification, and shoot it in only ONE firearm. You will never have another pending disaster in your young reloading life, admittedly it will be a pretty boring life.

Reloading takes some common sense and two reloading manuals: Lyman (because of jacketed and cast bullet data) and the Loading Manual from your favorite powder company. For redundancy you could get a loading manual from a bullet company. 99% of my load data, loading information, and decision making information comes from my copies of Lyman Reloading Handbook, Accurate Arms Powder, and Hornady Bullets loading manuals. They don't all agree on much of anything, but each provides useful information to make a decision for a safe useable load.

__________________
S&WHF 366

That data will only be valid with that exact bullet. If you use a sim profile bullet, the data will be close.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The OAL is only one consideration. You understand a coated lead is NOT a jacketed or even plated bullet. That book data would need to be reduced for coated lead. Even then, every gun is diff, so what works in mine might fail miserably in yours.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Buy ONE box of standard factory 9 MM ammo (NOT "Self Defense ammo") in your choice of bullet weight. Fire 5 rounds while doing 3 things:
1] Aim at the same target
2] Hold the gun same during each shot
3] Observe where the empty case hits the ground the first time (not the second or third bounce) when ejected from the gun.

If your reloads eject the brass 2 or more feet farther before the brass hits the ground, your ammo may be too hot.

If you RELOADED ammo ejects empty brass that distance or less, your reloads are OK. If your empty brass clears your gun, cycles the slide to load the next round, the slide locks back on last round fired (if your gun has a slide stop), and ejects the empty case a shorter distance than factory ammo; you are good to go.

__________________
S&WHF 366

That is a pretty nebulous test, but not invalid. Recoil impulse & cace ejection can be greater with a given powder & still be at safe pressure levels. Something like TG vs BlueDot.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

So just to clarify you are saying that TG (relatively fast) would likely eject spent casings more sharply and further than BD (relatively slow) at similarly average pressures? The sharply raising pressure curve of TG would empart the same force on the slide assembly over a shorter period of time than the BD, which spreads the impulse out a bit?

That's chewy. I'll have to pay more attention to that.

__________________
Trucks and guns.

No. Run at the same pressures, the BD load will likely toss case further as the slide will be running harder as the bullet will be moving about 100fps faster. Pressure isn't creating recoil, it's mass x vel / by gun wt.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Ah I follow. I usually watch with new loads I am trying but never thought to compare a box of faster powder against a box of slower. That makes sense. I'll have to try that.

__________________
Trucks and guns.