I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this?

I figger there must be a reason if one cannot find rifle powder data for a handgun cartridge. But, I would contact the powder manufacturer and ask them. They may have an acceptable/safe answer for your powder...

Accurate has data for the 500 S&W

Their site is: Accurate Powders You can download their Reloading Guide version 6 right from the site.

Some rifle powders, like SR 4759 can be used in pistols. I believe that if a powder lies near the slower pistol powder range it may be usable, if not suitable. One problem you may run into is inconsistent burning.


IF I were to approach something like that, I'd put a tiny load in a case and fire it, hoping the bullet would clear the barrel. If it clears the barrel without blowing up the gun, you are in the ball park. If it doesn't, pound out the bullet and try a slightly bigger charge. I think I'd put the gun in a vise and pull the trigger with a string. I know this sounds unsafe and bizarre, but it is going out on a limb and I'd get a beat up similar gun to start with. It's entirely probably that performance will be poor. I don't have the resources to do risky experiments, but if you do, at least approach it safely as possible with the idea that you can destroy a gun and/or yourself.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The 500 S&W is not a cartridge with which I have had any experience, so I cannot offer any specific advice.

What I can say is that using rifle powder to sub for pistol powder will, in most cases, give very substandard performance. I'm sure that the 500 takes large charges of (for pistol) slow "magnum" powder. To get anything like effective results, you'll need to stay as close to the burn speed of normal 500 powders. So, the rifle powder would need to be a very fast (rifle) powder. Trying a medium to slow rifle powder will most likely be a perfect waste of time.

In addition, rifle powders, though slower than pistol powders, can be more energetic....making their employment in a cartridge for which they were not designed anything from a problem to a real danger.

If NO data is available for the powder(s) you contemplate using....there may well be a good reason for that. Powders do not always behave as expected, when used outside of normal perameters.

If there is no data from the powder manufacturer for the cartridge you wish to load, then that particular powder is not to be used in that cartridge. Period.
When you say "lots of rifle powder" what do you mean? Lots of different types?
Do you own a good reloading manual? This one is a good one -

I'm not trying to be offensive but your question is a question a person who is up to speed on reloading would even ask.

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Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

I typed in several responses to this thread, none of which I would allow myself to post...

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

Those rifles powders and empty 500 S&W cases are talking to you huh?

Fight the temptation.
sometimes Exlax looks like chocolate!

$30 for a pound of appropriate pistol powder will get you up and running

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Im going to try address the characteristics of rifle vs pistol powder and where you might run into a problem. Rifle is slow, pistol is fast. Slow pistol powder like 110 and 4227 are fast for rifle. Typically the slower the burn rate the more pressure the powder needs to burn. While 500 S&W has a relatively high opersting pressure, Im pretty sure it comes in short of .30-06, 300WM, etc. If you use a true slow burning rifle powder, I think youre going to get squibs and the ones that launch lead will also launch enough unburned powder to sandblast your forearms and face. Stick to slow pistol powders for a good burn.

Im guessing this how things would go if you worked your way up shy of hitting 60,000ish psi

$20 or $30 is cheaper than buying a new gun.

It is cheaper than buying new fingers and eyes.

It is cheaper than explaining how you came to kill a bystander.

Reloading is a serious business. You cannot take shortcuts. Shortcuts, universally, are a quick route to blowing up a gun and getting people hurt.

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If there is no data for the thing you are contemplating, then don't do it. There's a reason why the numbers don't exist.

Now, if you have a Model of 1893 French 8.5mm Ordnance revolver, and cannot find data for that cartridge with, say, BE-86, then it's safe to say that the data doesn't exist because nobody felt like doing the development for you and the two other guys who own one.

But .500 S&W Magnum isn't an obscure cartridge by any stretch of the imagination.

If rifle powder worked in the 500 S&W it would have been in manuals by now. So please buy the powder used for this round don't try to reinvent the wheel.

What kind of rifle powder are we talking about?

PS Alternative solution. Shoot more rifle rounds.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

None but the fastest rifle powders (such as H110, 2400, or IMR 4227) would work satisfactorily in the .500. Slower powders would likely not be dangerous but would likely burn incompletely, producing very low muzzle velocities.

Using a Phillips screw driver on a flat head screw does not work well.

IMR 7828, I have in abundance. It is a slow burning powder. I was thinking if slow then maybe a lot goes to waste in muzzle flash and the 500 would be fine.

H110 is a pistol powder for magnum pistols, 357 44 454 500, that I've looked at.

IMR 7828 is too slow for many rifle cartridges so I don't understand how you could feel that it would work in a pistol round, even in a large case like the .500. Even if there is publish rifle data for it doesn't necessarily make it a good choice for that particular round.

Handloading is one endeavor where trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is not a good idea.

Bruce

I've several rifles that are perfect for the 7828, in fact most of them. Makes sense to me that slow burning is safer then fast for safety.

H110 started out as a rifle powder - the standard for the .30 Carbine, also used for many small case capacity rifle loads, such as the .22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. One of the best choices for the .300 Blackout. And of course it is also used in many Magnum handgun loads.

montana500, 7828 is way too slow for any pistol cartridge and is way too slow for many rifle cartridges too. Don't even think of trying it out on the S&W 500 cartridge. That powder is much more appropriate for magnum class rifle cartridges. If you don't already have some, buy yourself a few reloading manuals such as Lyman, Lee, Speer, etc. Also your powder manufacturers have loading data too and are a very good online resource for loading data for the cartridges you are interested in.

As to powders appropriate for the 500, Alliant's 300MP, 2400 and Power Pistol have data from Alliant. With Western (Accurate and Ramshot), there are 6 powders used in listed load data. With Hodgdon/IMR/Win load data, there is 7 different powders listed with load data on their online site.

The old IMR company used to publish data using rifle powders in pistol cases. It was strange to see IMR-4350 used in the .44 Mag with a muzzle velocity just fast enough to push the bullet out of the barrel. This was way before the S&W 500 came out.

This has been discussed a couple of time already.

Rifle powder for handguns?

As posted above. AA has a load using 5744. A "fast" powder(for rifle)

Glance at a powder burn rate chart and look at the recommended powders for the 500 SW and then for rifle powders like your 7828 powder.

Notice anything??

Spend the $25 and buy some different powder.

Rifle << Accurate Powders

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20R...02015-2016.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...2016_Web-1.pdf

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Still Running Against the Wind

ONLY USE PUBLISHED LOAD DATA !
If you can't find load data for the powder you have , there is a reason, the powder is not suitable.
Don't press your luck at the loading bench, it's not worth it ....Load Safe.
Gary

I will respectfully disagree. Just because the manuf hasn't bothered to test a given powder/bullet combo does NOT mean it is unsafe, just untested. Just about any powder can be used to some extent in any caliber. It just requires some extrapolation. Not for beginners, but many of us do wildcat reloading, no data, so we extrapolate all the time.
For the 500, the only rifle powder that are likely to give any useful results are the uberfast rifle powders at the beginning of the burn rate chart for rifle powders. That would be AA1680 or maybe RL7 & 4198. After all, these do fine in the lower pressure 45-70, rifle or handgun. Anything slower isn't going to do much but burn a lot of powder. Use 4227 data & work it up in 2/10gr increments. Of course, YOU ASSUME ALL LIABILITY for any load development you do but that is how I would approach it.
I wouldn't press my luck with something like 7828, a fav of mine for over bore rifle rounds, but you are tempting a hangfire or sim with a powder that slow in a large bore. It could go bang for sure, but the results would be poor. Of course you only have to answer to yourself. Many have experimented with such things just because. If we survive, it becomes a learning experience. BE safe.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I'm certain that I have an opinion on this.

4350 has been my goto powder for over 20 years, mostly for my 30-06. I didn't know it had any pistol application.

Rifle powder can be used in the 500 S&W.
PM with email address (you cannot attach anything to PMs here) and I will send you John Ross write up with his tested data which includes a number of rifle powders.

I have tested a number of them and all have perform as described in his write up including there use in a lever gun.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

It is.

As I previously posted, Accurate has published load data for the cartridge in version 6 of their manual (available on their website) and one of their powders is what we would traditionally call a "rifle powder".

THERE ARE OLD RELOADERS ......THERE ARE BOLD RELOADERS ....BUT THERE ARE NO OLD,BOLD RELOADERS!!!!!!

Actually there are quite a few of us around.
While it is always prudent to follow book data, the more exp you get reloading, the more you understand the dynamics & safe extrapolation is possible. Nothing wrong with sticking to book data, until you cant find the components in the book or you get into a cartridge with little or no data.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I have to respectfully disagree to this. Powder/bullet manufacturers will test any powder they think is appropriate and will work well. They just do not publish data for powders tested that do not perform well or are not really suited for the application. This is the case for the .500 mag. and using rifle powders. Can one use a rifle powder? Sure, and the fastest rifle powders like IMR4227 are a prime example. It is my go to powder in .460. Problem is, when you go to slower rifle powders, you can't get enough of it in a case to give anything more than mediocre .500 mag performance. Why the 'ell does someone buy a .500 mag if they are not looking for performance.

Buy an appropriate powder that is proven to work well for the application/caliber and move on. Sending bullets downrange with an inappropriate powder that only gives mediocre performance is just a waste of good bullets.

People just starting in reloading are NOT going to assume any liability for their actions , it's always somebody else's fault.
The gun , the powder, the primer....but not themselves !Too much at risk and far too easy for them to make mistakes.

I wouldn't be telling a newbee to go on off in uncharted territory....
Just stick with published data untill you get experienced .

Gary

Like I said. Sometimes the data doesn't exist because the ballisticians tried it and found the results unsatisfactory or unsafe. Popular cartridge and a popular powder, but no data? Probably not a good mix.

Sometimes the data doesn't exist simply because the cartridge is too obscure. Factory ammo last manufactured in the island nation of Nauru during the German occupation? Brass must be ordered from a blind monk in rural Latvia? Powder was just released to the market last month? Probably the cartridge geeks didn't get around to it yet, or couldn't convince their bosses to buy a pressure barrel for it.

In this case, it's not about whether you can use some kind of rifle powder in .500 Magnum. It's about whether the OP can use the rifle powder he has in .500 Magnum. And given that it's a decently-documented cartridge, I would suggest that if there's no data for that powder, it's probably not the greatest idea in the world.

Powder is cheap.

Your assumption, which is all it is, is incorrect. Look at any given manual. You will find say a powder in 9mm for 115gr & 147gr & not 124gr? So somehow the powder is suitable for 115gr & 147gr & not 124gr?? There are nearly infinite combinations of powder & bullet & the bullet/powder guys are not going to test them all nor even publish them all. Why there is little to no data with plated bullets or coated bullets or heavier bullets than usually used (160gr in 9mm for example).
Yes, extrapolation of data is not for newb reloaders. It can be done safely though. Far too many of us do it & have done it for decades with safe, good results. There are about 110 diff powders suitable for reloading all handgun rounds from 380 to 500. Most manuals will cover about 12, maybe 15 each. They just aren't going to test 20-30 diff powders, not gonna happen. Hell, they don't even update their data from edition to edition, just copy the old data, even though powders do change a bit over the years & lot to lot variations. They have even dropped some of the oldie but goodies like Unique. Certainly doesn't mean Unique is no longer suitable.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

We agree, but the blanket statements of follow the manual period or old & bold reloaders is just ignorance IMO. Some people can drive a car safely beyond the speed limit, some can not even get on the fwy @ the speed limit. All fine, but we ALL go off book whenever we use ANY component NOT listed. It's just a matter of degree.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Elmer Keith was an early pioneer in smokeless powder. I was surprised when one of his books mentioned he would sometimes combine black powder with smokeless.

In one of my reloading manuals, I still looking for it, is a list of 100s of powders and their burn rates. I suppose that is where one might start in using a rifle powder, with data from a similar burn rate of a pistol powder.

Two bits.

(1) Elmer Keith knew a lot about reloading. He also blew up a lot of guns.

(2) Don't assume burn rate charts are linear. Just because Powder A is right next to Powder B, doesn't necessarily mean they're alike. Powders 10-15 can all have similar burning rates, and Powder 16 can be much slower.

I don't see where this helped answer the OP's question at all.

Second, this is an aphorism originally about pilots, not reloaders.

Third, as some others have already said, the aphorism is not necessarily true. I, for example, have been reloading wildcat cartridges with ZERO reliable published reloading data for upwards of thirty years and I am still alive and reloading.

Just because powders have similar burn rates doesn't mean their charges would be anywhere close to one another. How would you guess what kind of charge to use?

I don't understand how you can buy a S&W 500 but can't afford the appropriate powder

Well, people are cheap and lazy. But I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and just figuring that the nearest LGS with a powder selection was 150 miles away or something.

And Madame Curie was a pioneer in radiation. Look what happened to her.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

The 45-70 & 500s&w have sim powder volumes, the 45-70 actuallY a bit less. Look at the 45-70 powder selections, even in a handgun, faster rifle powders. So I see no reason it cant be done with sim reults in the 500.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The question was never whether some rifle powders can be used in the .500. The question was whether the OP could do so with the powder he had, given that there's no published data for it.

The original question was can you use rifle powders, no data, in the 500. Then the op picked one of many he owns. The no published data issue is what freaks out the less exp reloader. Again, we all get away from book data to some degree. Some of us are comfy with larger degrees. If all i had was rifle powder, even that powder, i could make it go bang in the 500. Results would be spotty, but it would go bang safely. After all guys, the 500 does run at rifle pressures.
I understand those that worship book data, good thing for newbs, but the more you reload, the more you learn there is a lot of between the lines stuff in manuals. If you are uncomfortable going off book, dont. Its just the sky is falling, Never go off book stuff, just never really happens does it. We all sub bullets, primers, cases, its all off book. Swapping powders isnt a whole lot diff, IF you understand the dynamics & risks. There are at least 40 suitable powders that can be used in the 500. Most manuals show maybe 12, maybe.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

It is not an assumption, this is where you are incorrect. It is what has been told to me from powder/bullet manufacturers when I contacted them about specific powder/bullet/caliber combinations. There is no advantage to not publishing loads that are superior to others published. Powder and bullet manufacturers are trying to sell their products and thus will give recipes that display the best performance and not publish those that give poor performance, the amount of space they have will delegate how far down the list they go...... no advantage to doing it differently. Kinda why powder companies don't publish loads using another powder manufacturers powder, even tho it may outperform theirs. Defeats the whole purpose of publishing their own manual.

As for powder being suitable for one bullet weight in a certain caliber and not another, take Alliant's Blue Dot for example. They strongly advise against using it for any 125 gr bullet in .357, but then clearly state it is safe for heavier bullets in .357, while at the same time state to not use it for any .41 mag loads. Still it's good for all .44 mag loads. Is this because they are new to the business and still afraid of some extrapolation?

If one searches multiple legitimate references and cannot find a particular powder/bullet combo, there's a good reason. It may not be it can't be used, but because it gives poor performance. While there may be an infinite number of powder/bullets combos that will work, those with the best performance are the ones put in the manuals.

I realize there are many handloaders out there that think they know more than those folks running tests with today's modern equipment. 'Ell, I know folks that still claim a 125 JHP over a good charge of Blue Dot is their "go to" load for SD and Alliant doesn't know what they are talking about.

I see many folks posting here and giving advice, that have never loaded .500 Mag. Again, try to get enough slow rifle powder in a .500 case with a heavy bullet to equal the performance of those powders widely recognized to give legitimate .500 mag performance. There's a reason folks that shoot .500 stick with those most published. As I said before, folks shoot .500 mag for the performance of the caliber. Projectiles for this caliber are expensive and to throw them downrange knowing they will perform sub-par is foolish. To do so in an attempt to save monies by not buying a pound of appropriate powder is even more foolish.

Once again a thread that has gone on and on for what reason??

"CAN" you use rifle powder? Well yes you "can" you can use baking powder or baby powder also. Will it be the best choice?? No it will not.
Now you are asking about "duplex" type loads" only with black powder added?????? Stop while you are ahead!

As Buck 460 mentioned and I have in the beginning. The powder companies or manuals have done the testing for you, so why reinvent the wheel??

Use a suitable recommended powder. There was one mentioned by Accurate but even it is probably not the best and do you even have any??

You are searching for a burn rate chart?? I provided a current up to date one?? Even so it does not tell you if the powder is good for your particular load.

Sure Wildcatters have experimented for years, if that is what you want and feel comfortable, then go for it. I doubt you will come to any new developments. Just making a "cartridge" go "bang" it not reloading.

It is best to go with a "best Practice approach"

You are the hand or reloader, it's all up to you. Just let me know when you are at the range so I don't stand near you

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Still Running Against the Wind

I just read John Ross's article on reloading the 500 S&W . He said to try any rifle powder normally suited for the 223 remington . He liked WC680 also . He talked about if you have a problem with leading your barrel , try a case full of slower rifle powders like 4198 , 3031 , 4895 , H322, H335 or BLC-2 . He went on to say that with a long nosed 450 gr bullet you could get 1400 fps with some of these rifle powders . He stated that although it was 500 fps less than max for that bullet it would be all anyone would want . He said several times that he was against using any powder faster than W296 / H110 . I am not suggesting or recommending the use of rifle powders . I have no experience in this matter .
I'm just sharing what John Ross has written , who supposedly has years and years experience shooting the big gun and has dealt with the factory on improvements to the 500 S&W . I hope this helps someone .

All anyone has to do to get a copy of John Ross article is to private message (PM) me your email address and will be happy to send it to you.

good luck and be safe
Ruggy

He was a danger to himself.

Sorry buck, you are just swallowing the powder guys bs. Lets take the 9mm per speer #14. They list 15 powders for the 124gr bullet. So you are believing they tested the 50 suitable powders & came up with this list of 15, really? So why is WSF suitable for the 115gr & 147gr but not the 124gr?
Is it unsafe, is it not suitable or is it just they didnt publish the result? Unique & WSF are mearly identical. Unique is represented in all 3 bullets wts but not WSF. So you would believe one is good to go & the other not? My point, the powder/bullet guys are NOT testing every possible combo & even the ones they do test are not making it into their data base for whatever reason, but it is NOT because the combos are unsafe.
Again, i understand the caution of those that feel they aren't capable of extrapolation, but to declare it unsafe, sorry that is just chicken little sky is falling stuff. Man has to know his limitations. Many guys have been reloading for 30-40yrs, but 1 or 2 calibers, so a very narrow exp level. Some of us have the same 30-40urs, but 25-30 diff calibers, 1000s of bullet & powder combos. To pretend we dont know anything is laughable. We are still here, still in one piece, still reloading.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO