223 dies - Lee vs Forster vs ??

amheck · Sep 26, 2017

I'm ready to start reloading 223 - just need the die set. After some research a while back, I had pretty much decided on the Forster Benchrest set at about $80. It seemed to be a nice middle ground.

I had the Lee FCD in my cart at Amazon and then saw the Lee 223 3-4 die set pop up for like $40, and I could get it by this weekend. I'd rather buy the nicer set, if its worth it, but the Lee gets good reviews, too, it seems.

What makes the Forster double the price of the Lee? Will you get better ammo? For now, I'm only shooting out of AR's, but maybe someday would like to be able to produce high-accuracy .223 ammo. For those if you working with the Lee, why'd you buy the Lee? And vice versa, for those of you with more expensive sets, what made you buy those?

Although with these 1000k round cases coming down in the $250 range, I'm also wondering if all this work is even worth it...but it seems like I've got almost $200 worth of little things in my shopping carts just to be able to load the 223 in the first place.

dusty3030 · Sep 26, 2017

The Forster would be great for extreme accuracy, but to see a real benefit you should be turning case necks, weighing brass for consistent lots, etc. All the methods for consistent benchrest quality ammo.
If you are loading for volume to shoot in your AR and still want to make good quality ammo for the .223 I'd take advantage of the carbide dies available. 1/2 the cost of the Forster and much faster plus they will size the brass to feed well in the auto loader.

Here is an example.

RCBS AR Series Small Base 2-Die Set Taper Crimp 223 - MPN: 11107

Ivan the Butcher · Sep 26, 2017

Forrester/Bonanza were to companies that merged just a few (maybe 12)years ago. Bonanza invented the sliding "collet" you see in many competition and banchrest dies. The Micrometer adjustment I first saw on Layman dies in the mid 80's. The patens ran out and you'll see better versions of both in the Redding Competition line.

You didn't say what type of rifle you have or plan to get. These style of dies are not the best for AR-15 and related systems. They are great for single shot and bolt action rifles though.

For the AR platform I think the standard Small Base or the newer Carbide design by RCBS would serve your needs best. (I loaded over 20,000 round with my Small Base set, but gave that set to a Brother-In-Law about 8 years ago. He loads all his AR ammo with them and is very satisfied!)

Ivan

gwpercle · Sep 26, 2017

You can load good ammo with Lee dies, I have several sets, the difference in price is due to the extra hand fitting and finishing.
The Forester are nicer , the finish and fitting are nicer but you pay for nice.
Will Forester Dies guarantee more accurate ammo...NO. The person and his experience loading will determine that. The dies are just a small part of the total . Most Lee dies are properly dimensioned, and will seat bullets fairly straight . You might find a die that's off but Lee will replace it. The Forester will more than likely be correct in all aspects, more quality control...the extra cost.
If you can afford the better dies, being a beginner to it all, they will make it a bit easier for you to reach the accuracy you desire.
After 50 years of reloading I can make the Lee dies work, I've picked up a few tricks .
Gary

427mach1 · Sep 26, 2017

I use the Lee 4-die set for my AR and have been very happy with it. I also use Lee dies for my 204. My AR is capable of shooting 1/2" 3-shot groups with the ammo loaded with these dies and my 204 has shot 1/4" groups.

amheck · Sep 26, 2017

thanks for the thoughts all.

Yeah, right now I just have two 16" AR's and may plan a few more. No precision bolt .223s at the moment. But I guess I was just thinking maybe I buy the Forster now and be ready if and when. But maybe the different types of guns do better with different types of dies?

So with the small base dies, I've seen these mentioned, but when I start reading about the small base dies, I've seen it mentioned a few times that it overworks the brass and that don't go to the small base until you have problems with the normal full length resize.

But if that's really the way to go with ARs....

427mach1 · Sep 26, 2017

amheck said:
But maybe the different types of guns do better with different types of dies?

Accuracy in bolt guns might be improved using neck-sizing dies; this can increase brass life, also. Note this only works if you limit specific brass to the rifle it was fired in. If you buy a bolt action 223, you could neck-size its brass while using standard full length sizing dies for your AR ammo.

rockquarry · Sep 26, 2017

In the last fifty+years of handloading, I guess I've had one or more die sets from most manufacturers, some of which are no longer in business. Maybe I've just been fortunate, but I can't recall any, regardless of price, that weren't good quality dies.

WR Moore · Sep 26, 2017

Based on almost 50 years of reloading and almost 40 reloading .223, for your usage, I'd strongly suggest the Dillon die set. You get a carbide neck expander button (and a spare), a really good seating die and a taper crimp die.

Slight downside: you need to read and follow the directions, setting the seating die is slightly different than other dies. Plus, you'll need to buy conventional adjustment nuts and a case gauge to properly set the sizing die.

I've used Dillon dies to load the .308 I used in long range target competition (600 & 1000 yards) with outstanding results.

Don't bother with the small base dies. When you read the instructions now, you see that small base dies are to be used for chambers smaller than SAMMI specs. (Not real likely with any semi-auto rifles.) If your sized round fits into the case gauge mentioned above and has proper headspace, it'll function fine.

amheck · Sep 26, 2017

You guys aren’t making this easy.....

bigedp51 · Sep 26, 2017

The main difference with the Forster full length benchrest die is it has a high mounted floating expander. The neck of the die holds and centers the case neck when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning this die can not pull your case necks of center and induce neck runout. My .223/5.56 cases sized in this die have .001 or less neck runout.

The Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies holds the case and bullet in perfect alignment for straight in-line bullet seating. Again meaning no induced runout from tilted bullets or cases.

On all my RCBS dies I ordered Forster expander and spindle assemblies that greatly reduced neck runout. Below on the left a RCBS .223 expander raised as high as it will move. On the right the Forster expander assembly that replaces and fits the RCBS dies.

Below a Redding .243 FL die retrofitted with a Forster expander assembly to reduce runout and drag from the stock Redding expander.

Trust me, I have tried a few .223 dies testing for neck runout and concentric cases for my two AR15s and Savage .223 bolt action.
I worked in a large sporting goods chain store and got a very good discount and even free dies.

For my AR15 rifles I use the RCBS AR Series small base die with taper crimp retrofitted with the Forster expander assembly. On my bolt action I use the standard Forster die.

NOTE, for reliable extraction with a semi-auto the full length resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This gives the case more "spring back" from the chamber walls when fired for reliable extraction.

I buy bulk once fired Lake City cases that have been fired in many different chambers. And using a small base die insures that the case has been sized closer to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

A small base die reduces the case diameter approximately .003 more and bumps the shoulder back .003 more than a standard die. "BUT" nothing is written in stone, I have a standard Lee FL .223 die that reduces the case diameter more and can bump the shoulder back more than my small base die.

If you are only using brass fired in your rifle you should be OK with a standard full length die. But if you use range pickup brass or buy once fired brass a small base die is good to have.

Bottom line, you will never go wrong using a Forster die and make very concentric cases and ammunition.

Your choice should be easy now...................Forster full length benchrest dies.
(and if needed the RCBS AR Series small base dies)

Ivan the Butcher · Sep 26, 2017

amheck said:
So with the small base dies, I've seen these mentioned, but when I start reading about the small base dies, I've seen it mentioned a few times that it overworks the brass and that don't go to the small base until you have problems with the normal full length resize. QUOTE]

The odds are, you will lose brass before you wear it out! When at the range, I recover about 95% of my brass. When in the field, I'm lucky to come home with 50%.

A small base die by RCBS is not a die for under sized chambers, They started making them in 308 for M1A/M14 semi and full auto rifles! I got mine in '78 for the mini 14 and later the AR-15.

Remember any information you get off the internet is only worth what you pay for it!

Ivan

amheck · Sep 26, 2017

Man...I may just have to flip a coin. But I guess many of you have multiple sets of dies for the same caliber. I guess it’s not the end of the world.

So if I went with my first thought and got the Forster benchrest set, would adding the Lee FCD at the end be blasphemy? I am thinking about the 55g fmjbt with cannelure and I think you want to crimp those.

amheck · Sep 26, 2017

bigedp51 said:
Your choice should be easy now...................Forster full length benchrest dies.
(and if needed the RCBS AR Series small base dies)

How would I know this? Failure to feed or extract issues at the range? I’m planning to get the Lyman case gauge if that will help me at all.

bigedp51 · Sep 26, 2017

Lake City military and commercial made 5.56 and 7.62 ammunition made for the military uses the hardest brass. Meaning thee cases are made heavy duty and Ford Truck Tough.

A small base die does work you brass more, "BUT" the reloader can control the amount of shoulder bump. The amount of shoulder bump when the cartridge is chambered is your head clearance. And when the head clearance is excessive it will let the brass stretch beyond its elastic limits and fail. I use Redding competition shell holders to control shoulder bump for .003 to 004 shoulder bump on my AR15 rifles.

Below a British military .303 Enfield rifle at max headspace can have .016 head clarance. And when thinner commercial .303 cases are fired they can stretch a good bit. And if full length resized can fail after 2 or 3 reloads.

If you keep your shoulder bump to .001 to .002 for a bolt action and .003 to .006 for a semi-auto and not over stress your brass.

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests << Daily Bulletin

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass? - MassReloading

NOTE, with Forster dies you can send them back to the factory and they will hone the neck of the die to your desired diameter.

hdwhit · Sep 26, 2017

amheck wrote:
I'm also wondering if all this work is even worth it...

If you're comparing the cost of plinking ammunition, you will probably not save an appreciable amount of money loading either 9mm or 223. There are many reasons to reload, saving money doesn't have to be one of them. I load so that I can say that in 40+ years, the only time I have bought factory ammunition was the first box that goes through a new gun. That way, if there's a problem, the manufacturer can't blame my reloads. After that it's all home-grown.

I started loading 223/5.56 in 1979. I have a standard set of RCBS dies (not small base). I load for two Mini-14s and two S&W M&P-15s as well as a Savage Axis. I have not had any problems with failure to feed or function with the standard dies in any of the four semi-automatic rifles.

Any of the major manufacturers will sell you a set of 223 dies that will produce perfectly good ammunition. I use RCBS because 1) their customer service is the best I have ever experienced and 2) they support a wildcat cartridge that I load for.

Forster and Lyman both make carbide expanders that can be added to any brand of dies. I found the Lyman assembly to be so flimsy it broke within the first 100 cases. The Forster works great, and minimizes the need to lubricate the inside of the case neck.

...would adding the Lee FCD at the end be blasphemy?

No, but probably not necessary. See below.

55g fmjbt with cannelure and I think you want to crimp those.

If you have good neck tension, crimping is not required even if the bullet does have a cannelure. Still, I operate on the rule that if it has a cannelure, I'm going to crimp into it, so I do. But you don't need a separate die to do it. All bullet seating dies will have a built-in crimping shoulder inside the die body. It is generally all you need.

The FCD not only crimps but performs a post-assembly sizing operation to ensure the loaded round will fit the chamber. I'm old enough and set in my ways enough to believe that if I assemble a cartridge and it doesn't fit then I've done something wrong and I need to fix the problem rather than adding an additional step to gloss over my shortcomings.

bigedp51 · Sep 26, 2017

amheck said:
How would I know this? Failure to feed or extract issues at the range? I’m planning to get the Lyman case gauge if that will help me at all.

I use the red JP Enterprise gauge below to check my loaded rounds. The JP enterprise gauge is cut with a finish chamber reamer and closer to minimum SAAMI diameter than a Wilson or Dillon case gauge.

As you can see below the reversed Lake City 5.56 cases dropped further into the Wilson and Dillon case gauges. Meaning the JP Enterprise is smaller in diameter and if it drops into this gauge it will fit any chamber.

Bottom line most AR15 rifles are over gassed and can start yanking on the case before it springs back from the chamber walls. And this can chew up the case rim, so the small diameter cases do not get banged up as much.

I buy once fired Lake City brass because it is "MUCH" cheaper, and a semi-auto will throw perfectly good brass away and make you go look for it.

DWalt · Sep 27, 2017

As I stated in another thread, I have a Savage 112V heavy barreled varmint rifle. No ARs at all. I have always used a .22 Hornady neck sizing die (which I also use for .220 Swift) as I do not need to worry about case interchangeability among different rifles. My bullet seating die is the typical standard RCBS, and it seems to do the job satisfactorily. At one time I was a bench rest shooter, but that was long ago. My present setup is as good as I need to get 1/2 to 3/4 MOA 5-shot groups with that Savage.

GCF · Sep 27, 2017

bigedp51 said:
The main difference with the Forster full length benchrest die is it has a high mounted floating expander. The neck of the die holds and centers the case neck when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning this die can not pull your case necks of center and induce neck runout. My .223/5.56 cases sized in this die have .001 or less neck runout.

The Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies holds the case and bullet in perfect alignment for straight in-line bullet seating. Again meaning no induced runout from tilted bullets or cases.

On all my RCBS dies I ordered Forster expander and spindle assemblies that greatly reduced neck runout. Below on the left a RCBS .223 expander raised as high as it will move. On the right the Forster expander assembly that replaces and fits the RCBS dies.

Below a Redding .243 FL die retrofitted with a Forster expander assembly to reduce runout and drag from the stock Redding expander.

Trust me, I have tried a few .223 dies testing for neck runout and concentric cases for my two AR15s and Savage .223 bolt action.
I worked in a large sporting goods chain store and got a very good discount and even free dies.

For my AR15 rifles I use the RCBS AR Series small base die with taper crimp retrofitted with the Forster expander assembly. On my bolt action I use the standard Forster die.

NOTE, for reliable extraction with a semi-auto the full length resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This gives the case more "spring back" from the chamber walls when fired for reliable extraction.

Your idea to retrofit - using Forster expanders, is interesting. Never thought of it.

Do you use the entire expander assembly (as shown below), or just the spindle, expander, & de-capper? Any issues noted?

https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/catalog/RP-001-01_Bench-Rest-Full-Length-Sizing-Dies.pdf

GCF · Sep 27, 2017

amheck said:
I'm ready to start reloading 223 - just need the die set. After some research a while back, I had pretty much decided on the Forster Benchrest set at about $80. It seemed to be a nice middle ground.

Everyone's criteria is different, but I'd buy the the Forster FL Benchrest set first. Never had one of their die sets, that I didn't like. Way better then "middle ground" IMHO. If "needed" afterwards, I'd add an RCBS SB die to the mix.

A while back, spent an obscene amount of $$ on a Redding Type S Match Die Set, for my Rem700 LTR / .308. Almost immediately replaced the sizing die - w/ a Forster FL. Still using the Redding micrometer seating die from the set, as it's a real nice unit, & probably as good as the comparable Forster seaters - that I've used in the past.

223 dies - Lee vs Forster vs ??

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