SNS cautioning about titegroup!!?

1sailor · Apr 28, 2018

I went to the SNS bullet site to put in an order and noticed they had a caution stating that the use of titegroup was a recurring theme regarding leaded barrels. They recommend switching powders. I thought this was unusual because Titegroup has always been my go to powder for cast bullets ever since I first tried it a few years ago. I use it for 9mm, .40S&W, 45acp, and .357 and have never had any problems with leading at all. Maybe some guys are just trying to use titegroup to push their bullets too fast or something. I have also talked to a lot of other reloaders who use Titegroup almost exclusively with cast pistol bullets. I wonder if Titegroup is really the issue. If a large percentage of reloaders are using titegroup with cast bullets it only makes sense that a lot of the guys who are having leading issues would also be using it. In any event, since I have had no problems to this point I don't intend to change now. Interesting, I just went back to their site and it looks like they've changed their warning to read "powders with fast or hot burn rates. So I guess they're not singling out Titegroup anymore.

Rule3 · Apr 28, 2018

Well that is a mouth full! If they are talking about COATED BULLETS??
Maybe they don't know how to properly coat bullets with Hi-Tek Supercoat

Odd that other vendors that use the same coating do not issue any warnings.??

I have some posts on here using a propane torch directly on a coated bullets and nothing happens to it. I have also smashed the heck out of them with a hammer and a vise and no flaking or chipping.

I don't use TG but do use BE and no issues.

Coating Instructions - Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings

rwsmith · Apr 28, 2018

I haven't used SNS......

...but I've never had a leading problem with any coated bullet or powder.

Sevens · Apr 28, 2018

Titegroup is a very high nitro content powder and it runs extremely hot. Though I do have a few select places where I like Titegroup, I quite specifically avoid it in .38 and .357 for sure across the board -- and my reason is simple. I choose to eject my brass in the familiar and common fashion where the left hand wraps around the cylinder and when I run Titegroup, it burns my hand. The cylinder gets FAR too hot.

Folks have had trouble using Titegroup with cast bullets in the past. In my experience, it isn't always trouble with lead bullets, but I think it's probably much easier when you run a business to simply suggest your customers avoid this powder.

I actually use it for swaged hollow-base wadcutters in .32 S&W Long and for that, it works well.

1sailor · Apr 28, 2018

I suppose anything's possible I just have never seen it. I've fired literally thousands of SNS coated bullets in all the pistol calibers I reload for and never had an issue. Based on Rule3's hammer testing I just tried the same with an SNS 130 grain coated bullet. I beat it until it was flat and didn't experience any coating loss so the quality of their coating probably isn't the issue.

Wise_A · Apr 28, 2018

Sevens said:
I choose to eject my brass in the familiar and common fashion where the left hand wraps around the cylinder and when I run Titegroup, it burns my hand. The cylinder gets FAR too hot.

I'll back that claim up. I tried a couple boxes of .44 Magnums loaded with Titegroup, one of light plinkers, and one Magnum-level. After each string of slow fire (629, 5-shot strings), the cylinder was noticeably hot with both loads. Uncomfortable to the touch, but not at the I-got-an-actual-burn point.

RDub · Apr 28, 2018

Hello
Sevens is correct about Titegroup having an abundance of nitroglycerin.
If you want to see more chemistry spectrum analysis of current powders check this site out;
National Center for Forensic Science

Here is an analysis of Titegroup;

Notice the nitroglycerin spike is way on top..

Here is a analysis for HP-38

The nitroglycerin spike isn't as high.

Anyway pretty interesting site to explore.

I haven't used enough Titegroup to come to any definite conclusions.

1sailor · Apr 28, 2018

The site has been changed from "Don't use titegroup" to "don't use any of the 15 fastest powders on this chart". Since Titegroup is #15 on the chart I'm guessing that's why they specify the first 15. I've never noticed the cylinders getting especially hot but that may have to do with our shooting styles. I shoot outdoors, slow fire (typically), single action. So even though I'll go through 300+ rounds at a sitting it may be over a longer period of time.

joeintexas · Apr 28, 2018

I use Titegroup in 9mm primarily. I do like it in 9mm but I will admit I do have to do a bit of scrubbing in the barrel to get all the melted lead out, not that its that much but it is stuck pretty good. Not so much with w231. Have never found any powder I didn't have to do a bit of cleaning up after.

Trooper224 · Apr 28, 2018

I've used Titegroup in the past with cast bullets. At one point during the last drought it was the only thing regularly on the shelf. It works, but it's very hot and the window of success with cast bullets seems to be pretty narrow. Push it just a bit further and you've got problems. In other words, it's probably the monkey, not the wrench. SnS has probably had complaints and is just doing deflection with an, "It's not me, it's you." response.

With a cast bullet, if you're getting any kind of leading in your barrel that takes more than two or three minutes to clean up, you've got one of three issues, or a combination thereof:

The bullet is too soft. (not likely with modern commercially cast bullets)

You're pushing the projectile too fast (probable, but if they're kept to a maximum of 1200 fps this shouldn't be a concern)

The bullet is undersized for the bore.

The last point is the most common culprit when leading is encountered. The same applies with the polymer coated bullets, only it's polymer build up instead of lead, which is even a bigger pain to remove. Make sure the projectile is properly sized to your pistols bore and it's easy peasy. This is a very critical issue with 9mm handguns. Being the most common service pistol cartridge in the world, guns are made to a wide range of tolerances and I've never seen a wider range in bore diameter than I have with 9mm.

Dobie406 · Apr 28, 2018

I use Titegroup in a couple applications, but NOT in my Blackhawk, my fingers are in too much contact with the cylinder while pushing out empties.

Rule3 · Apr 28, 2018

Power pistol and Longshot have high Nitro content and do not burn things up.

Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??

As I said before the many other vendors out there have no "reports" of fast powders burning up their coating I have no idea why SNS is saying this?

Their warning doe NOT specific what bullets? Regular cast or the ones they are coating?? Bullseye powder has been used for many many years and is a popular powder for cast lead bullets in 38 special and 45 acp, so their "warning" makes no sense to me.

For COATED BULLETS A propane torch directly on the bullet (blue flame) did not cut through the coating.

But I do not use their bullets so it means little to me either.

1sailor · Apr 28, 2018

I don't use TG for any real "magnum loads" in my 357's. I usually load to about midway between magnum and a 38+p.

S&WIowegan · Apr 28, 2018

sevens nailed it!

I was using TiteGroup in my very mild 38 Short Colt ammo for use in steel matches. After 5 runs in a 627 the barrel and cylinder were too hot to touch for long. I switched to Vihtavouri N310 for a very mild, cool shooting steel load.

A shooting buddy blew up his brand new 627 8-shooter with a TiteGroup major power factor load. It happened during a match and we never found any of the pieces. He sent the gun to S&W and they said there were no discernable gun flaws. They also refused to sell him another 627 but did sell a 625 to him wholesale. All of us except the shooter believe he had a double charge.

nachogrande · Apr 28, 2018

NO FAST POWDERS???

Guessing that would include bullseye that has only been around FOREVER.

NO PROBLEMS with TG in my 226 9mm using cast. IF HOTRODDING???

muddocktor · Apr 28, 2018

1sailor, unlike you, I have run into leading problems with SNS bullets and don't buy them any more because of that. If I am buying coated bullets, I buy from Bayou or MBC instead as I have not had any significant leading problems with either of those companies coated bullets. With the leading issue that occurred with SNS bullets for me, they were loaded to the same powder charge that I had loaded Bayou bullets of the same design to with no problems. These were relatively hotter rounds that were loaded in the 1100-1200 ft/sec range with 9MM, 357 Mag and 44 Mag. To use up the rest of my SNS bullet supply, I backed the powder down so that they performed in the 800-900 ft/sec range and leading went away. The powders I was using at the time were Longshot and WSF mostly. In 44 Mag I couldn't load Longshot down far enough to make the SNS bullets quit leading so I went to HP38, 700-X and Accurate #2 and the leading issues went away at the lower load velocities.

As an aside, I never have messed with TG; there are other powders I am already familiar with that suit my loading habits well.

Carrier · Apr 28, 2018

nachogrande said:
Guessing that would include bullseye that has only been around FOREVER. NO PROBLEMS with TG in my 226 9mm using cast. IF HOTRODDING???

I as well shoot a ton with Bullseye and have started using Tight group under swagged Hornady and Speer 357 and 44 magnum. They are light loads mine you but no leading and really accurate.

Wise_A · Apr 29, 2018

Rule3 said:
Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??

There are two answers. One:

Because you can generate higher pressures--for shorter periods of time--without dealing with the recoil of higher velocities. They shoot cleaner, and spent cases eject easily because the chambers sealed.

9mm operates at around the same pressure you'd be aiming for with mild .44 Magnums (30-35k PSI), and it's a fine powder to use if you don't need to make PF.

The other:

Nothing special happens when you append "Magnum" to the end of a handgun cartridge. It's just a combustion chamber. It's the same as all the other ones.

Turns out, Bullseye is pretty kickin' at .45 ACP, using anything from a 185-grain to 230-grain lead bullet (although I prefer WST).

.44 Magnum also uses lead bullets, usually anywhere from 180 grains to 255. What makes these two cartridges different? If you're making nice, easy-shootin' ammo, Bullseye works equally well in either. If you're trying to max out velocity, then Bullseye is a poor choice in both.

Sevens · Apr 29, 2018

Rule3 said:
Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??

There are reasons, good reasons. Titegroup is for certain the LEAST position sensitve powder I have ever used, and I have used dozens of powders. For a very light target load in a large volume case, most powders use only a fraction of the space and shot to shot variances are simply ridiculous. Not so with Titegroup.

I use a 5.7gr charge of Titegroup under a 240gr cast LSWC in .44 Magnum that returns 870fps from a 7.5" Redhawk. It's the epitome of pleasant and the steel plate rack loves it.

Rule3 · Apr 29, 2018

Yes, you are shooting target loads not magnum loads. Might as well shoot 44 Special

Just a few more grains or a double charge and your pressure spikes and that's why it is called Tite Boom.

So little powder in such a big case. It's even more fun when used in 9mm and 40 SW.
But whatever, so many powders so many choices.

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

SNS cautioning about titegroup!!?

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