Unique vs. Universal Clays

I haven't handloaded in a long while. Used to use Unique a lot.

Have heard that Clays burns cleaner and performs as well in the same range of velocities.


NOTE: I mean Universal Clays, not a faster powder just called Clays.

Comments from those who've used both powders?

Not similar powders. Not even close.
Clays is 9th fastest powder, Unique is 32nd.
Then there's UNIVERSAL Clays.
38th. Slower burning than Universal, but closer.
Mixing these up can cause bad things to happen.
I don't see any significant cleanliness difference when any of these are loaded properly.

Clays is a very fast powder and listed charge weights are even less than
those for fast powders like Bullseye and 700X. Try Hodgdon Longshot as
a superior replacement for crummy Unique.

You don't mention what calibers/ loads you would like to use these powders on so it's hard to get specific. Generally speaking, these powders are very different and can get you into trouble if your not careful. Both have their place but are far from being interchangeable.
To point, Clays is a great powder in low pressure rounds like 45ACP and 38 special ( with heavy bullets) but can be safely used to get to mid/target velocities ONLY. ( I use it almost exclusively in 45acp) .If you try to push Clays , pressure will spike horribly and potentially take your gun apart (or worse.) Unique is more versatile and forgiving. It will work work in a broader range of calibers, bullet weights and velocities.

EDIT: MY BAD!! I READ "CLAYS" and not "UNIVERSAL CLAYS" in the title. These re even less interchangeable than Clays and Unique. Please disregard.

Wee is correct that Clays and Unique are different horses for different courses - and this is one area where Unique gets an underserved reputation for being "flaming dirt".

Unique actually burns quite clean at loads that are closer to the maximum end of the range. I use it as my go to powder for short barrel revolver loads in .357 Magnum, where it is clean burning and comparatively light recoiling compared to Win 296 or H110 and with little or no loss in maximum velocity obtainable (contrary to popular opinion).

With Unique you're using 8.5-9.0 grains under a 125 gr bullet compared to 20-21 grains of Win 296 or H110 under the same 125 gr bullet. That charge of H110 or Win 296 is over twice as heavy and produces significantly more recoil due to over twice as much mass of powder exiting the muzzle at high velocity. It also creates a great deal of very gritty partially burnt powder residue, the type that not only smacks you in the face, but can also find it's way under the ejector star and prevent you from being able to reload.

The ability for Unique to operate safely at comparatively high pressures in high volume cases (with resulting low load density) without pressure spiking makes it very useful in short barrel magnum pistol loads as well as in "reduced" cast bullet rifle loads. For example, 9.6 grains under a 250 gr bullet is a great cast bullet black powder era velocity load in the .38-55 and 14 grains under a 405 gr bullet works well in the .45-70 to create black powder velocities without the mess (although you'll need to use a 1/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" polyester fiber (quilt batting) wad stuffed in the case (using an unsharpened pencil) on top of the powder to take up some of the volume in the .45-70 case.

Where hand loaders screw up with Unique is using it to try to develop light or mid range loads in large volume handgun cartridges like the .38 Special and .357 Magnum. You can indeed do that safely, as Unique is extremely tolerant of very low load densities. However, in that situation Unique isn't very efficient burning and does create a lot of powder residue (although without the grit that is created by colloidal ball powders like H110/Win 296).

Clays or another fast powder like Red Dot, Clay Dot or Bullseye will work much better in a light to medium handgun cartridge load - although again you have to use a great deal of caution as you push past the medium range to avoid pressure spikes, especially in large volume cases.

Smokeless powders in general are progressive burning powders where the burn rate increases as the pressure increases. A fast burning powder in a large volume case, can result in the combination of a comparatively large charge of powder, scattered in a large volume case, where it may ignite and burn even faster than normal, which can increase the pressure and thus the burn rate so quickly that you get a pressure spike that will blow up the gun.

If you do chronograph testing of those loads as you move up a powder charge ladder, you'll see the standard deviation in velocity start to rise as the pressure increases, and you'll start to see some increasingly high velocity outliers, which is your clue to back way off as you are starting to see incipient pressure spikes.

I use Unique for a lot of calibers, including 12 and 20 gauge shotgun shells.
It is what it is, and it works for me.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

P.S. If anyone has a 8# can of Unique they don't want, I volunteer to take it off your hands.

Clays is very diff than universal clays, dont confuse them. Univ is sim to unique in burn rate. I like it for jacketed but get better accuracy with lead using unique.

Unique - Bullseye - 2400. All you need.

I couldn't find any Unique during one of the panics, so I got some Universal (aka Universal Clays). It preforms much like Unique (very, very close, but different load data), meters better, and while "dirty" does not concern me, it is reported to burn "cleaner". Lots of folks "confuse" Clays with Universal Clays when posting in a forum. If one is talking about Unique and a "Clays" powder, and unless they mention a caliber and charge they often mean Universal

TomkinsSP said:

Unique - Bullseye - 2400. All you need.

Click to expand...

Preach it.

I treat Clays, Bullseye, and 700-X as being pretty much the same, ditto Universal Clays and Unique. The relative quickness will depend to some extent on the cartridge and the load. The tables of relative quickness as being indicative of ballistic performance are nothing more than rough approximations derived from standard laboratory tests, not actual firing. They should not be considered as being tables of powder interchangeability. "Burning rate" is not a term which would be used by any propellant manufacturer or ballistics engineer, even though many handloaders seem to toss it around with abandon without really knowing any better.

I've been keeping in simple after starting up again after all these years....red-dot for .38 & 1 1/8 skeet...unique for .357 & 1 3/8 hunt.....291 for .410.....even I can keep it straight!

My near-substitute for Unique is AA-5.
Found a store some years back that evidently was getting a heck of a deal on AA powders. Stocked up on AA-5, 7 and 9.
That covers a lot of handgun loads....

Clays is good for light to medium loads in medium cal. pistols and 12 Ga. trap loads.
Unique does well with medium to Heavy loads in those weapons, as does its cousin, Universal Clays.

Just know what your are pouring and use the correct data.
Stay safe.

Apparently, I made a boo-boo. I meant Universal Clays.

Didn't know there was a faster powder just called Clays.

Please base further comments on Universal Clays.

Thanks. Sorry for the confusion.

Cartridges involved are .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Para (9X19mm), .44 Magnum and Special, and .45 Colt and .45 ACP. Medium to heavy loads are what I had in mind, starting with standard velocity loads for those cartridges. I'm thinking really heavy loads, near max., will need slower powders like H-110, 2400, and W-296. Those will be for the Magnums. I think Unique or Universal Clays will let me go as far as I'd want to in, e.g. .45 Colt.

I'll change the title of the thread to show U.Clays.

Have never gotten the accuracy of Unique with Universal Clays for that matter . 4.5 to 5.0grs Unique with 38 special 158 SWC loads , 6.5 to 7.0 same bullet in 357 mag are both good shooting , accurate mid range loads .

Texas Star said:

Apparently, I made a boo-boo. I meant Universal Clays.

Didn't know there was a faster powder just called Clays.

Please base further comments on Universal Clays.

Thanks. Sorry for the confusion.

Cartridges involved are .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Para (9X19mm), .44 Magnum and Special, and .45 Colt and .45 ACP. Medium to heavy loads are what I had in mind, starting with standard velocity loads for those cartridges. I'm thinking really heavy loads, near max., will need slower powders like H-110, 2400, and W-296. Those will be for the Magnums. I think Unique or Universal Clays will let me go as far as I'd want to in, e.g. .45 Colt.

I'll change the title of the thread to show U.Clays.

Click to expand...

Why i said dont get confused. Best to just call/think of it as universal.

TomkinsSP said:

Unique - Bullseye - 2400. All you need.

Click to expand...

AKA "The Holy Trinity"

Old Corp said:

My near-substitute for Unique is AA-5.
Found a store some years back that evidently was getting a heck of a deal on AA powders. Stocked up on AA-5, 7 and 9.
That covers a lot of handgun loads....

Click to expand...

AA-5 is very good for high-end loads in 9mm and .38 Super. My favorite in 9x23 Win, easy to get 1400+ Ft/sec with 124 grain bullets.

Texas Star said:

Apparently, I made a boo-boo. I meant Universal Clays.

Didn't know there was a faster powder just called Clays.

Please base further comments on Universal Clays.

Thanks. Sorry for the confusion.

Cartridges involved are .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Para (9X19mm), .44 Magnum and Special, and .45 Colt and .45 ACP. Medium to heavy loads are what I had in mind, starting with standard velocity loads for those cartridges. I'm thinking really heavy loads, near max., will need slower powders like H-110, 2400, and W-296. Those will be for the Magnums. I think Unique or Universal Clays will let me go as far as I'd want to in, e.g. .45 Colt.

I'll change the title of the thread to show U.Clays.

Click to expand...

When people shoot shotguns at little clay targets the use of "clay" in a powder name is pretty much inevitable. Hodgdon however has gone over board with the term over the years and thus we have:

Hodgdon Clays;
Alliant Clay Dot;
Hodgdon International Clays; and
Hodgdon Universal Clays.

The fact that powders designed for use in shotgun use also work well in pistol cartridges just makes it more confusing.

Many burn rate charts try to avoid confusion by calling them:

Clays;
Clay Dot;
International; and
Universal.

Words, names and terminology are important, especially when discussing reloading data. When people get sloppy, accidents start to happen.

I'm also not a fan of folks who call bullets or projectiles "tips" or "heads". To be fair these terms seemed to have come into use due to vendors using the these terms because some of their idiot customers didn't understand the difference between "bullets" and loaded "cartridges" and got upset when they ordered bullets and received bullets instead of loaded ammunition.

I'm ambivalent about the term "boolits" and I'll let it stand only if it's used in the context of case bullet loads. But it's still sloppy use of terminology.

"Caliber" and "cartridge" also get misused and confused even more often than "clip" and "magazine". "What is your favorite caliber?" is an incredibly stupid question unless we're specifically talking about muzzle loaders.