Best Target Speed for 16" Barrel AR-15 .223

OK, I finally made it out to the local range to sight my Sport II at 25yd and 50yd. That was the good part. Used Frontier 55JHP for sighting and had to raise the front sight by 4-6 turns to bring the POA = POI at 25yd.

Trying to zero at 50yd with iron sights is doable for this old man, but only if POI somewhere on the torso. Not necessarily a bad thing, since all my SD situations/potential, are probably in the range of 40yd or less. And THAT is my goal/focus. Not interested in 300-600yd POIs at all. FWIW, at 200yd my front sight post covers up the target nearly completely.

TRIED to use my reloads at 2.245" OAL, and that was a no-go. Apparently TOO long to cycle. My light reloads of 24.0gr all failed. My higher reloads of 2.49gr fired 3-5rd before they failed to cycle. All said and done with regards to my Sierra Manual's AR Reloading Specs COAL of 2.500" DOES NOT work in my Sport II AR-15, not even 2.245"... And that throws into question the entire load/grain range, particularly when shortening the cartridge.

My concern is just how much can I shorten these cartridges without the risk of an overload?... The AR is not a bolt action BR rifle and never has been by design (throw your darts later, OK?).

Oh, and I managed to not be able to get my Lab Radar to work on the range. TOO many months of resting my brain cells... yada, yada...

Interesting points... I did end up having a light primer strike on one of my reloads (with Remington 7-1/2SR primers). Plus, while trying to cycle reloads, I had the bullet to compress into the brass... NOT good. Suspect too long COAL...

Bottom line, I still need to get some FPS on my reloads to see what I have and can have...

BTW, I wore my N-95 respirator mask for two full hours, and the other three at my unit/range wore nothing... I hate young pups under 50...

HorizontalMike said:

Trying to zero at 50yd with iron sights is doable for this old man, but only if POI somewhere on the torso. Not necessarily a bad thing, since all my SD situations/potential, are probably in the range of 40yd or less. And THAT is my goal/focus. Not interested in 300-600yd POIs at all. FWIW, at 200yd my front sight post covers up the target nearly completely.

Click to expand...

You've go a building with 40 yards in it?

HorizontalMike said:

OK, I finally made it out to the local range to sight my Sport II at 25yd and 50yd. That was the good part. Used Frontier 55JHP for sighting and had to raise the front sight by 4-6 turns to bring the POA = POI at 25yd.

Trying to zero at 50yd with iron sights is doable for this old man, but only if POI somewhere on the torso. Not necessarily a bad thing, since all my SD situations/potential, are probably in the range of 40yd or less. And THAT is my goal/focus. Not interested in 300-600yd POIs at all. FWIW, at 200yd my front sight post covers up the target nearly completely.

TRIED to use my reloads at 2.245" OAL, and that was a no-go. Apparently TOO long to cycle. My light reloads of 24.0gr all failed. My higher reloads of 2.49gr fired 3-5rd before they failed to cycle. All said and done with regards to my Sierra Manual's AR Reloading Specs COAL of 2.500" DOES NOT work in my Sport II AR-15, not even 2.245"... And that throws into question the entire load/grain range, particularly when shortening the cartridge.

My concern is just how much can I shorten these cartridges without the risk of an overload?... The AR is not a bolt action BR rifle and never has been by design (throw your darts later, OK?).

Oh, and I managed to not be able to get my Lab Radar to work on the range. TOO many months of resting my brain cells... yada, yada...

Interesting points... I did end up having a light primer strike on one of my reloads (with Remington 7-1/2SR primers). Plus, while trying to cycle reloads, I had the bullet to compress into the brass... NOT good. Suspect too long COAL...

Bottom line, I still need to get some FPS on my reloads to see what I have and can have...

BTW, I wore my N-95 respirator mask for two fill hours, and the other three at my unit/range wore nothing... I hate young pups under 50...

Click to expand...

Not criticizing, but are you absolutely sure the OAL was the problem? I've only had experience with three ARs and all would easily accept the maximum magazine length of 2.26" with most bullets, particularly with the short Sierra bullets. Is your full length sizing okay and have you run any of the sized brass or loaded cartridges through a gauge? A gauge will insure 100% chambering reliablity. Good luck-

Did you seat the bullets to the cannelure? If not the bullets are too long, not for the magazine but for the barrel.

Engineer1911 said:

Did you seat the bullets to the cannelure? If not the bullets are too long, not for the magazine but for the barrel.

Click to expand...

The Sierra bullets 53gr Match King do not have a cannelure. I used a slight roll crimp on them AFTER:

• trimming brass to length
• full resizing (Redding Dies) brass
• Trickle charging to 24.0gr and 24.9gr
• I measured every brass cartridge for length
• adjusted my dummy round from 2.25" down to 2.245" and manually cycled the bullet
• I then reset all 60 reloads to 2.245" COAL

BTW, my Frontier 55JHP (OEM 3240fps)sighted in dead on at 25yd. When I got to the 50yd, after discovering my reloads fail, I still had a magazine of Fiocchi 40gr Hornady V-MAX (OEM3650fps). At 50yd, these were shooting ~4in high. I am assuming faster fps results in higher POI at 50yd...? Correct? Sorry that I ran out of 55gr JHP when moving to 50yd (not a pure apple to apple comparison).

NOTE -- This was at an outdoor range. My home range is only for handguns 7yd--15yd max.

I now suspect that the two compressed OAL occurred when trying to open slide and applying the forward assist. Don't know for sure.

Measured OEM cartridges that worked well:

• 55gr JHP = 2.176" COAL
• 40gr V-Max = 2.235" COAL

How Much To Shorten COAL

I decided to compare the three cartridge's length and shape:

• Reloads - FTF, except ~4rd of my heavier loads 24.9gr before FTF
• Frontier 55JHP - These worked great w/no- FTF
• Fiocchi 40gr VMax - These also worked great w/no-FTF

I Visually lined them up as well as I could, and measured each. From the attached images, you will notice that the Frontier 55JHP are 0.073" "shorter COAL" than the Sierra Manual calls for using their #1400 HP MatchKing 53gr. bullets.

• How much increase in pressure would there be by changing/shortening the 2.25" COAL down to say... 2.230, 2.200" or 2.2177" OAL?
  
• Could I still use the Sierra Loads Range for this bullet & powder?

One thing I noticed is that my #1400 bullets are fatter for a longer distance before tapering... aka taper is shorter.
Maybe this could be causing the hang-up/FTF? Is the throat/rifling too narrow at this point?

Openly wondering if my lightest reloads w/24.0gr H322 would be a safe place to start? Load Range is 23.1gr---25.2gr Max and the 24.0gr is just shy of the mid-point in the range.

Measure and look for differences between unfired factory and your loaded cases. Discount OAL but measure shoulder length, angle and diameters. You may have set the shoulder back.
Do the cartridges fail to chamber when single loaded?
Do the cartridges hang up halfway into the chamber?
Have you tried multiple magazines?
OAL is your problem if the cartridges enter the chamber and the bolt will not seat the last 1/2" to 1/8", even with forward assist. If that is not the problem then OAL is not a problem.

mtgianni said:

Measure and look for differences between unfired factory and your loaded cases. Discount OAL but measure shoulder length, angle and diameters. You may have set the shoulder back.
Do the cartridges fail to chamber when single loaded?
Do the cartridges hang up halfway into the chamber?
Have you tried multiple magazines?
OAL is your problem if the cartridges enter the chamber and the bolt will not seat the last 1/2" to 1/8", even with forward assist. If that is not the problem then OAL is not a problem.

Click to expand...

My lighter reloads (24.0gr) locked up "in battery"... Very hard to get them to eject.

My heavier reloads (24.9gr), the first 4-5rd fired and cycled, before eventually locking up in battery. Not quite as hard to manually eject but still difficult. This leads me to wonder if a slightly shorter COAL might solve this...

Still wondering about that one cartridge with a light primer strike and FTF and FT-eject.

All said and done, this was a new unfired rifle. I sighted it in with a 30rd magazine of OEM Frontier 55gr JHP, and all fired perfectly. Only when switching to my reloads, using Sierra #1400 bullets, Lapua new brass, trimmed to 1.75in, fully resized, slight roll crimp, and OAL of 2.245in, did I start experiencing FTFs and FT-eject.

"...OAL is your problem if the cartridges enter the chamber and the bolt will not seat the last 1/2" to 1/8", even with forward assist..."
That happened twice and caused the bullet to be shoved back into the brass, as pictured in my previous post #21 above.

OK, having experienced some of your issues, let me pass on some experience.

1. Iron sight POI at 25 yards is supposed to be about 1 inch BELOW POA due to bore offset. Your loads didn't have squat to do with that way high at 50 yards thing.

2. From experience, your extraction difficulties (and possible chambering difficulties-like your light primer strike) are likely due to the (excessive) roll crimp causing a bulge at the case shoulder. Break down and buy a taper crimp die. FWIW, I discovered best practice was to have 2. One for cannelured bullets, one for bullets without. Due to the violent cycling of the carbine length gas system, some type of crimp is highly advisable.

BTW, an over crimped bullet supposedly has less contact with the case neck, possibly leading to your issues with bullet setback. Although overly long OAL might have something to do with it.

3. Most load data for the bench rest bullets are for bolt guns. The Hornady manual gives 2.200 in OAL for the 55 gr FMJBT and a max of 23.1 gr H322. For their version of the 52/53 gr JHP bullet, they give an OAL of 2.230 in and a H322 max load of 25 gr. I've had good feeding with rounds with an OAL of 2.240 in and below. I set my seating die long ago and think the OAL on the FMJBT is 2.2.30 in.

Sierra Bullets Info/Advice

WR Moore said:

OK, having experienced some of your issues, let me pass on some experience.

1. Iron sight POI at 25 yards is supposed to be about 1 inch BELOW POA due to bore offset. Your loads didn't have squat to do with that way high at 50 yards thing.

2. From experience, your extraction difficulties (and possible chambering difficulties-like your light primer strike) are likely due to the (excessive) roll crimp causing a bulge at the case shoulder. Break down and buy a taper crimp die. FWIW, I discovered best practice was to have 2. One for cannelured bullets, one for bullets without. Due to the violent cycling of the carbine length gas system, some type of crimp is highly advisable.

BTW, an over crimped bullet supposedly has less contact with the case neck, possibly leading to your issues with bullet setback. Although overly long OAL might have something to do with it.

3. Most load data for the bench rest bullets are for bolt guns. The Hornady manual gives 2.200 in OAL for the 55 gr FMJBT and a max of 23.1 gr H322. For their version of the 52/53 gr JHP bullet, they give an OAL of 2.230 in and a H322 max load of 25 gr. I've had good feeding with rounds with an OAL of 2.240 in and below. I set my seating die long ago and think the OAL on the FMJBT is 2.2.30 in.

Click to expand...

Ans #1 -- Got it. I did NOT have same ammo when going to 50yd, other than the reloads that FTF. I had Fiocchi 40g VMax

Ans #2 -- I will search for such a critter ASAP. That said, I really, really tried to crimp as minimal as possible. Maybe so much that I didn't "crimp" per say.

Ans #3 -- I am aware of the sizable difference in the Sierra load range... "...they give an OAL of 2.230 in and a H322 max load of 25 gr...." Remembering that my 2.245" reloads FTF, I am going to try something like 2.230" OAL. I finally got through to Sierra via email and found out some good news for me!

My #1400 53gr bullet can be seated fully to the Ogive (0.353") and still use the published Sierra load data safely. That means that I could, if I chose, shorten my COAL by as much as 0.156", aka 5/32". I do NOT plan on such a drastic adjustment, but shortening by ~0.015--0.020" looks like a good option. After all, the first 4-5 rd of my higher reloads fired and cycled fine, before FTF. So a COAL of 2.230"--2.235" sounds rather attractive at this point. MAYBE... I am that close.

In closing, I cannot say enough about the Sierra Bullets folks in helping and educating me about better seating of their bullets. A BIG THANK YOU to them for helping us ALL out when we need it!

Maybe a week or more before my next rifle range trip, but I will be ready! In the mean time I think I will fire up my HG range and play with my wheel guns...

Add a .223 case gage to your reloading accessory list. Check newly sized cases in it, & then again after you've seated & crimped, to make sure they pass.

Cases with soft annealed necks tend to buckle at the shoulder before the the desired crimp is obtained. A case gage can double check your work.

I prefer Lee's Collet crimp die. You virtually eliminate the possibility of buckling a shoulder & get a great crimp.

To increase your bullet-case tension you might want to check the diameter of your sizer's ball. Polishing it's diameter down a few thousandths can greatly increase the seated bullet's bullet-case tension.

A better crimp & more bullet-case tension should help keep the bullet from being pushed deeper when chambered.

Just curious, what's the 53gr. MatchKing bullet's overall length. My 55gr. bullets run ~.731"

Even my 64gr JSP-BT run ~.825" long & they're seated to 2.242" COAL without any feeding issues in my Sport II.

.

Updated

The average of 10 Sierra #1400 bullets is... 0.6967" or 0.697"

I am also learning about too much crimp on these .223 rounds, as imaged/linked below... Didn't even know to look for that...
Lesson learned. Out of the nine FTF rounds, just the one shows too much crimp to the eye. Though I am now convinced some or all of the others may have enough flaw to FTF.

UPDATE: I measured all remaining unfired and FTF rounds (51) and found only the one where neck crimp collapsed shoulder.
Neck -- remaining were within spec at 0.253"
Base-to base of neck -- remaining were all 1.557" (within spec)
Will shorten reloads OAL to 2.220" (since Frontier 55JHP were 2.177" and rather accurate). Hopefully, new OAL will work this time.



FWIW, this is the 223 Die set that I use:

HorizontalMike said:

The average of 10 Sierra #1400 bullets is... 0.6967" or 0.697"
.
UPDATE: I measured all remaining unfired and FTF rounds (51) and found only the one where neck crimp collapsed shoulder.
Neck -- remaining were within spec at 0.253"
Base-to base of neck -- remaining were all 1.557" (within spec)
Will shorten reloads OAL to 2.220" (since Frontier 55JHP were 2.177" and rather accurate). Hopefully, new OAL will work this time.

Click to expand...

Okay, that bullet isn't longer than normal. No reason you can't go shorter, say 2.200", without issues, if you want to.

.

I strongly suggest you get a cartridge/case headspace gauge. I've never advocated one for pistols (since you can use your barrel to check that your ammo passes the "plunk" test) but it's a MUST for rifles, especially these ARs.

Just drop the sized case in to verify your sizing operation & again later once you've seated & crimped the bullet to make sure it still "plunks" in the gauge properly.

A lot easier (& more effective) than hoping your measurements translate into a proper fit in the chamber.

Hornady .223 Cartridge Gauge
------------------------------------
Hornady Cartridge Ga 223 Remington

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Bluedot37, just ordered the Hornady gauge you linked, as well as the:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012939524?pid=477756
Probably redundant, but what the heck. I may end up ordering that for my Rem .222 as well, but will wait for now...

Like I said above, I have ordered what I need to KNOW exactly how I am doing. That said, I decided to hold a Whack-a-mole happy-hour to celebrate my recently enhanced brain cell supplement

Anywayzzz... I decided to start fresh and did the whack-mole-thing...

'Nuff said, but I did actually see a deformation at the shoulder, visual and very hard to measure if any... Looking at these cartridges reflecting in the light ended up as the only clue that this old man's eyes had to see that "something" was not right.

All said and done, for now, I am not initially supporting any such crimping on my bullets without a cannelure.

Got plenty supplies, just need to hone my experience...

Horizontal- I won't argue with anyone on this, but I've yet to find a crimp necessary or desirable when loading for an AR, regardless of whether a bullet has a cannelure or not. There are always exceptions, but, if you have any doubts on this, shoot some benchrested 100 yard groups with uncrimped rounds and crimped ones. Go with whatever shows an advantage, if any. Good luck-

rockquarry said:

Horizontal- I won't argue with anyone on this, but I've yet to find a crimp necessary or desirable when loading for an AR, regardless of whether a bullet has a cannelure or not. There are always exceptions, but, if you have any doubts on this, shoot some benchrested 100 yard groups with uncrimped rounds and crimped ones. Go with whatever shows an advantage, if any. Good luck-

Click to expand...

I am planning on leaving/shooting with the iron sights only on this AR. The only reason for purchasing same was an "overly large" purchase of supplies to reload my Jan. 1953 Remington #722 bolt action with a K-10 Weaver scope of the same age. It still shoots dead on at 200yd. However, I do know that I will never go through my supply of ~3,500 Sierra MatchKings with my bolt action...

All said and done, I never plan on having to shoot the AR over ~50yd in SD/HD, hence iron sights only. Kind of fun shooting with a bare naked rifle, even with my 68yr old man eyes...

then I'm lost some. If only shooting up to 50 yards accuracy and speed are not a factor. If your rounds don't feed or cycle with your loads loaded to with in the proper range and at 2.260 Coal, there is something else wrong.

Johnrh said:

then I'm lost some. If only shooting up to 50 yards accuracy and speed are not a factor. If your rounds don't feed or cycle with your loads loaded to with in the proper range and at 2.260 Coal, there is something else wrong.

Click to expand...

I am working on correcting my rounds. My mistake was attempting to put a slight roll crimp on my non-cannelure MatchKing bullets. I ended up damaging (bulge) the brass at the shoulder.

SO... I most likely do NOT have an issue with COAL. I won't know until I can make up some new hand loads and get back to the range and test them, again.

HorizontalMike said:

However, I do know that I will never go through my supply of ~3,500 Sierra MatchKings with my bolt action...

All said and done, I never plan on having to shoot the AR over ~50yd in SD/HD, hence iron sights only. Kind of fun shooting with a bare naked rifle, even with my 68yr old man eyes...

Click to expand...

HorizontalMike said:

My mistake was attempting to put a slight crimp on my non-cannelure MatchKing bullets. I ended up damaging (bulge) the brass at the shoulder.

Click to expand...

Okay, that sound like a good plan. I have some additional input if you like.

You & I are essentially the same age. I've reloaded since the late 60's. I'm a big handgun loyalist & the only other bottleneck centerfire rifle cartridge I currently reload for is 30-06, since the late 70's.

I'd resisted the AR craze until now when my sons though they each needed one, so, being the reloader in the family I got one too.

Right after my one son got his he bought some reloads (200) from the indoor range I shoot at. I had just ordered the pictured supplies above & was waiting on them at the time. I bought the case headspace gage locally, on a whim. Glad I did.

Long story short, the LGS reloads all had to be broken down, resized & prepped, & reloaded with my powder (theirs was unknown brand/weight) & their bullets reseated/crimped BECAUSE none of them smoothly plunked in the gage & the majority was horribly off (not full length sized/incorrectly sized).

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I found, in my testing, that it was best to have strong bullet-case tension (by reducing the sizer's expander ball's diameter) & a good crimp to keep the bullet in place when slammed into the AR's chamber by the bolt.

Without those I found that my dummy rounds would either have a shorter COAL" (got pushed in by the feeding ramp) or, more often, a longer COAL" (pulled out by inertia).

Again, I strongly suggest Lee's Factory Collet crimp die. It crimps differently than the traditional 223 crimp die, won't (hasn't for me) bulge the shoulders & is intended for bullets with or without a cannelure.

I've loaded over 1200 rounds in the last 45 days, using only bullets weights with a cannelure, & have not had any issues in the ARs with them.

The Lee collet crimp die I got for my 500 Magnum wasn't too inpressive but this one for the 223 is. Definitely a thumbs up!

Factory Crimp Die 223 - Lee Precision

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I've never had a red dot on anything but liked the idea after I played with my son's red dot equipped Sport II. I got a Sig Romeo 5XDR because it gives you the option of either a 2 MOA red dot or a 65 MOA circle/dot reticle.

With the circle turned on you can quickly aim the rifle, with both eyes open, & see the circle thru the sight for near targets.

With the supplied extra base the AR's metal front sight co-witnesses in the bottom 1/3 for the red dot sight, does not interfere with the red dot's operation, & you can still use the AR's metal sights if wanted/needed.

Like you I don't anticipate shooting beyond 50yds either & with older eyes I'm sold on it.

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