Is this a safe load?

I’m attempting to replicate Underwood Xtreme Defender .38 special but I do not have load data so I am having to guess.

I have loaded 100 grain Lehigh Defense Extreme Defense bullets in all my test rounds, just like the Underwood Extreme defender

My cartridge overall length is just over 1.5 with the bullet seated in the cannelure.

Brass and primers are Remington, I had to take down target rounds due to the primer shortage.

My test rounds are 7.8 grains of Ram Shot True Blue, 8.3 grains of the same powder, and 8.9 grains of the same powder.

The test revolver is a Model 10-6 with the factory 4.2 inch heavy barrel, mine dates to 1977-1978.

Are my test loads safe or is that too much pressure?

You're too hot.
The closest thing that the Western Powders load data shows are couple of 110gr bullets (no 100gr).
One of them shows a 5.6gr-6.2gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
The other shows a 6.7gr-7.4gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
I know your bullet is 10gr lighter - but at your starting charge of 7.8gr you're above the max for a bullet just a tiny bit heavier.
Where did you get the 7.8gr for a starting load?

BC38 said:

You're too hot.
The closest thing that the Western Powders load data shows are couple of 110gr bullets (no 100gr).
One of them shows a 5.6gr-6.2gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
The other shows a 6.7gr-7.4gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
I know your bullet is 10gr lighter - but at your starting charge of 7.8gr you're above the max for a bullet just a tiny bit heavier.
Where did you get the 7.8gr for a starting load?

Click to expand...

Lehigh Defense lists load data on their site for the bullet. The data they list though is only for standard pressure, I verified that with them over the phone. Their standard pressure numbers stop at 7.5 grains for max pressure (and I want +p) and 7.8 was as close to that as my Lee Auto Disk could get. 8.3 And 8.9 were the next 2 highest settings. I just assumed that if 7.5 was the top end of standard pressure than 10% more would be 8.25, which is almost exactly the 8.3 my powder measure could give me and 7.8 would be somewhere between standard and +p and 8.9 would be the highest I’d risk.

My goal is to match Underwood’s claimed velocity of 1,300 fps. I also called underwood and confirmed that their test barrel was also 4 inches. Lehigh lists 1,055 for 7.5 grains.

Lehigh's page, follow the link on the page for the load data: .357 / 38 Xtreme Defense(R) 100gr Bullet

Yeah, a lot of powders pressure curves don't scale linearly with the quantity of powder, so a 10% increase in powder doesn't necessarily produce a 10% increase in pressure. It may produce 15% or even 20% or more increase in pressure.

The kind of experimenting you're talking about usually falls under the heading of "wildcatting" and is some pretty risky territory. When you get into that kind of experimentation, a powder measure is NOT the right tool to use IMO. They tend to throw within a variable range of +/- .1 gr or more, so your 8.3gr may be 8.2gr or 8.4gr and when you are at the extreme upper end of the range, that is too much variance. If you're going to do it you should be weighing every charge when coloring "outside the lines" like that - to make sure you are getting a precise amount of powder.

I would suggest you start at the 7.5gr upper limit and load two or three at 7.5gr, two or three more at 7.6gr, two or three more at 7.7gr, etc. on up to around 8.0gr - for starters.

Do you have access to a chronograph? If so you can see what kind of increases you get at each step. Keep a close eye on the brass looking for flattened primers, and difficult extraction. I'd also probably shoot them out of one of my 357magnums just to make sure there were no issues. But if the 10-6 is the only thing you have available, it will do, just proceed carefully.

That's the way I'd do it IF I were inclined to do what you are proposing. But I'd be more likely just to buy the Buffalo Bore ammo instead of trying to cook it up myself. Good luck with it.

Be careful.

My reading from forgotten sources suggest some of the boutique hot
loads use several different powders, with different burn rates, in a
single loading.

BC38 said:

Yeah, a lot of powders pressure curves don't scale linearly with the quantity of powder, so a 10% increase in powder doesn't necessarily produce a 10% increase in pressure. It may produce 15% or even 20% or more increase in pressure.

The kind of experimenting you're talking about usually falls under the heading of "wildcatting" and is some pretty risky territory. When you get into that kind of experimentation, a powder measure is NOT the right tool to use IMO. They tend to throw within a variable range of +/- .1 gr or more, so your 8.3gr may be 8.2gr or 8.4gr and when you are at the extreme upper end of the range, that is too much variance. If you're going to do it you should be weighing every charge when coloring "outside the lines" like that - to make sure you are getting a precise amount of powder.

I would suggest you start at the 7.5gr upper limit and load two or three at 7.5gr, two or three more at 7.6gr, two or three more at 7.7gr, etc. on up to around 8.0gr - for starters.

Do you have access to a chronograph? If so you can see what kind of increases you get at each step. Keep a close eye on the brass looking for flattened primers, and difficult extraction. I'd also probably shoot them out of one of my 357magnums just to make sure there were no issues. But if the 10-6 is the only thing you have available, it will do, just proceed carefully.

That's the way I'd do it IF I were inclined to do what you are proposing. But I'd be more likely just to buy the Buffalo Bore ammo instead of trying to cook it up myself. Good luck with it.

Click to expand...

Yes, I have a chronograph, a Caldwell Ballistic Precision G2.

I actually thought of Buffalo Bore but their website does not show any cartridges loaded with Xtreme Defense bullets. If I had my drothers I would just buy from Underwood, but they are out of stock and have been for months and I am too impatient to wait months (or years, lets be honest), for them to maybe get more in stock, if they ever do. The only Xtreme Defender stuff I have noticed them make over the last couple of months is some weak sauce standard pressure 90 grain 9mm and some 45 ACP +p (which I bought some of the night it released, that was going to be my next project).

Sounds like you have everything you need. If you do this, just proceed with extreme caution. Like I said, I'd be weighing every charge.

I understand the goal: I guess I don't understand the exercise..? There is load data from the manufacturer of the bullet using the powder the OP used (and I use it, myself) with a stated Maximum for 38 S&W Special. It is one of many powders listed.

Underwood uses that same 100gr bullet but loads it to 1,200 fps in 38 Special, and to an even higher velocity, 1,300 fps as well. That ammo is listed as +P, however the powder they use is an unknown.

Will merely using more powder than the load data that the bullet manufacturer lists as Maximum generate those same higher velocities SAFELY using the powder the OP used? Will that anticipated result be the same for any or all the other powders listed? As BC38 stated, that 10% more powder could result in 20% more pressure! Or, more...?

What pressure does it take to generate Underwood's numbers? Which powders can actually generate that pressure (again, SAFELY)?

Did the manufacturer not list higher charges in this specific bullet's load data for a reason?

Lehigh lists load data for their 120gr version of the Xtreme Defender for 38 Special, 38 Special +P & 357 Magnum for that bullet. The Maximum True Blue +P load for that 20% heavier bullet is 6.8 gr @1,015 fps and is also listed as subsonic.

Does it follow because an ammunition manufacturer exists (assumedly with access to pressure testing equipment & different powders) who can load to these higher velocities that the OP's 1,300 fps goal can be achieved SAFELY using any of the powders listed in Lehigh's load data?

Lacking reliable pressure information I don't see how...? Be careful, please!

STORMINORMAN said:

I understand the goal: I guess I don't understand the exercise..? There is load data from the manufacturer of the bullet using the powder the OP used (and I use it, myself) with a stated Maximum for 38 S&W Special. It is one of many powders listed.

Underwood uses that same 100gr bullet but loads it to 1,200 fps in 38 Special, and to an even higher velocity, 1,300 fps as well. That ammo is listed as +P, however the powder they use is an unknown.

Will merely using more powder than the load data that the bullet manufacturer lists as Maximum generate those same higher velocities SAFELY using the powder the OP used? Will that anticipated result be the same for any or all the other powders listed? As BC38 stated, that 10% more powder could result in 20% more pressure! Or, more...?

What pressure does it take to generate Underwood's numbers? Which powders can actually generate that pressure (again, SAFELY)?

Did the manufacturer not list higher charges in this specific bullet's load data for a reason?

Lehigh lists load data for their 120gr version of the Xtreme Defender for 38 Special, 38 Special +P & 357 Magnum for that bullet. The Maximum True Blue +P load for that 20% heavier bullet is 6.8 gr @1,015 fps and is also listed as subsonic.

Does it follow because an ammunition manufacturer exists (assumedly with access to pressure testing equipment & different powders) who can load to these higher velocities that the OP's 1,300 fps goal can be achieved SAFELY using any of the powders listed in Lehigh's load data?

Lacking reliable pressure information I don't see how...? Be careful, please!

Click to expand...

That’s the issue, underwood’s load data is unknown, so I’m literally guessing, hence this thread, so I don’t blow something up.

I selected True Blue simply because it had the highest velocity on Lehigh Defense’s data of the powders I have on hand. As for the velocity focus, the Xtreme Defender bullet performs better in terms of wounding capacity the better the velocity as it doesn’t function as a hollow point but instead uses fluid pressure channeled through the flutes on the bullet and velocity equals pressure, also it’s a solid copper projectile and more criminals where armor these days than before, still unlikely, but I figure it gives it a fighting chance of punching through armor if need be, at least the lightweight stuff.

I did consult Lehigh, they do not have a reason for not listing +p load data, the guy I talked to said they simply have not gotten around to it and that +p load data will be added in the future.

Looking at Western Powder’s data, I am now considering Ram Shot Silhouette at 7.1 grains instead, according to their data, that pushes a 110 grain Sierra to 1,304 fps, which would put me over my goal, I’m assuming a 100 grain Xtreme Defense will go to an even better velocity, however the cartridge overall length will be longer, not to mention the ballistics so I’m not sure. Would it be reasonable to assume that (working up from 6.7 grains) would be a safe load? Even 6.7 grains gives 1,233 fps according to their load data, which is much better than Lehigh Defenses figure, add in a lighter bullet and who knows?

Why will the cartridge overall length now be longer with the Silhouette: you were already loading at 1.500" (at the canelure)? That's longer than the 1.435" in their NEW 8.0 Load Data...

The usual "rule of thumb" is that a powder load for a heavier bullet (of the same basic design) should be OK for a lighter bullet of the same basic design. Since you have a chrono your plan to start at 6.7 gr makes sense to me.

Cheers!

P.S. Thanks for leading me to that 8.0 load data, BTW!

Test hot .38 loads.....

...in a .357 magnum pistol.

Reloaders need a reliable way to test pressure. There are some devices that measure from barrel strain but its not straight data from the chamber.

If You are going to load like that, wear ear and eye protection, and if possible get someone else to fire them.

Or, a long string...?

dave1918a2 said:

If You are going to load like that, wear ear and eye protection, and if possible get someone else to fire them.

Click to expand...

Or, a long string...?

STORMINORMAN said:

Why will the cartridge overall length now be longer with the Silhouette: you were already loading at 1.500" (at the canelure)? That's longer than the 1.435" in their NEW 8.0 Load Data...

The usual "rule of thumb" is that a powder load for a heavier bullet (of the same basic design) should be OK for a lighter bullet of the same basic design. Since you have a chrono your plan to start at 6.7 gr makes sense to me.

Cheers!

P.S. Thanks for leading me to that 8.0 load data, BTW!

Click to expand...

I meant that the overall length is longer than the load data, it will be the same as my other loads, I.E. at the cannelure.

I have no idea who Underwood is, but get some real load manuals (Lyman for sure), compare data, and proceed from there safely.

Just a polite question for the OP; have you ever reloaded revolver loads before? If this is your first foray into it, I'd suggest you start with mild pedestrian loads for your S&W Model 10 like using 158 grain cast lead semi-wadcutters, or 148 grain cast lead wadcutters, and say Win 231 powder; 3 grains of Win 231 for the wadcutter loads, and 4 grains for the 158 grain SWC. I use Bullseye for such (in different weights of course), but it is terribly easy to double charge unless you are really careful. Just my advice - walk before you run, etc.

First get some underwood ammo and see if it is doing 1300fps out of your gun. You do not know what powder(s) underwood is using, you may be chasing a Unicorn! Just because the box says 1300 does not make it a fact. Be Careful trying to make a high pressure load without the knowledge or equipment, you could end up having to throw bullets with your off hand. Please Be Safe.

That's quite a jump in powder. Their high is 7.5 and you go up to 8.9 grains. If trying to produce hot loads pushing the boundaries you really should invest in a powder measure that can adjust in smaller increments.

The 9mm and 357 loads I looked at were more conservative on the Lehigh defense data than Hodgdon with the same bullet wieght.

nbedford said:

Just a polite question for the OP; have you ever reloaded revolver loads before? If this is your first foray into it, I'd suggest you start with mild pedestrian loads for your S&W Model 10 like using 158 grain cast lead semi-wadcutters, or 148 grain cast lead wadcutters, and say Win 231 powder; 3 grains of Win 231 for the wadcutter loads, and 4 grains for the 158 grain SWC. I use Bullseye for such (in different weights of course), but it is terribly easy to double charge unless you are really careful. Just my advice - walk before you run, etc.

Click to expand...

No I haven’t, and normally I would agree with you however the component shortage has tied my hands. I have no primers, zero, zip, nada, and I absolutely refuse to pay some scalper $250 for a $40 box. Casings and bullets are very tricky to get too. I can’t even find molds to cast my own. I have no components to speak of save for the bullets I ordered from Lehigh Defense, which are now sold out.

For this project, the only thing I was able to do was buy factory target loads and pull the bullets one by one with an inertial puller just to get primed cases. So I unfortunately cannot experiment. I have 100 primed cases and ruined about 4 or 5 of them getting my dies set up (I didn’t realize my powder through expander die was mussing the expander, I had to get Lee to send me a replacement), and 100 Xtreme Defense bullets, plus the 100 FMJs I tore down to get the primed cases, and some true blus and silhouette powder. That’s it. I have no other components. I have a lead melted and and ingot mold too, but bullet molds no longer exist. I have a Lee Pro 1000, a broken bullet feeder, a defective auto disk powder measure that spilled a half pound of true blue on the bench and floor and charged not a single case and a “national metallic” digital scale that has a wandering zero after the first few seconds. I had to measure my charges using dippers and repeated measuring and remeasuring on the crappy scale to make sure the charges were indeed accurate. And an APP press, half of a case trimmer, half a bulge buster kit, a universal decapping die, a set of .45 ACP dies, a set of .38/.357 dies, a shell plate for each, and a bullet puller, that’s it, and a Hornady ultrasonic cleaner and solution, everything else is permanently out of stock unless you want to pay a scalper 10 times the price, or more, assuming even scalpers have the stuff. I bought everything in ernest once I concluded that the ammo shortage was likely permanent or 2+ years long, in the best case scenario.

My next project will be making my own primers from match heads, because that is apparently the only way to get them now for less than the cost of twice the price of a loaded cartridge from a year ago.

FYI, my original plan was a simple single stage kit to get started however those were sold out everywhere I looked, the only press I could find was the Pro 1000 .38/.357 kit from Titan Reloading, save for the APP press, which I got from Midsouth, everything else, even the little C presses were sold out and still are, no backorders. So I am just getting things piece mail as they become available, I figure that this will be the only way to get ammunition for less than $5 a round in the near future, and I’m not even being facetious, wait until this summer/fall, I fully expect to see Wolf 9mm for $250 a box of 50, at the rate we are going, count on it. Panic from the damned virus, made worse by the media, shortage caused by reduced production by said virus, production interrupted by component shortage caused by the production shortage, then panic from the riots, and hoarding due to panic and scalpers, now tell me I’m wrong about $5 a round Wolf 9mm... And that’s not even taking in to account the civil war that is likely to start. Get your reloading gear now, or learn archery and spear throwing...


So no, I can’t make any 158 grain target rounds right now... Once I make enough primers and actually find some 6 cavity bullet molds sure, assuming gun powder still exists, if not, I will have to make black powder too. Hell, I can’t even find wheel weights.