I am in Ohio Looking for any load bullet combo .
is it possible for any kind of group at 300 yards
I am shooting a Marlin Guide gun
I am good at 200 yards now shooting Hornady 300g hp or nosler 300
any advice would be appreciated
Oldseabee Thank you
You are shooting a big heavy bullet that is going to be slowing down a bit at over 200 yards. Your biggest problem will be the elevation you need on the rear sight. I have a Shiloh Sharps 45-110 with iron sights. I can hit 24-inch gongs at 300 yards but never tried for groups.
Get some load manuals, a Hornady and Nosler for sure since you want to use their bullets, but I'd also get a Lyman. While what you want to do is possible, your choice of gun and cartridge is far from the best choice if you intend to shoot beyond 200 yards. A 300 grain .45 caliber rifle bullet will be short and stubby with a poor ballistic coefficient. Bullet drop even at top velocity will be considerable. Recoil will be punishing at top velocity and you further handicap yourself with velocity loss using a short-barreled carbine. Get the ballistic coefficients of both bullets from the load manuals (or maybe online) and plot the trajectories. For years, I've used Mannes' "Tables of Bullet Performance" to do this easily but this might be available online.
150 yards would be the maximum distance for me with such a combination, but your skill level may allow you to stretch that to 200 yards. I'd predict accuracy with the selected bullets won't be good at 300 yards but that's only a guess and I may be way wrong. Good luck-
Last edited by rockquarry; 03-07-2021 at 09:34 PM.
0 to 200 yds is ok with short bullets altough I like a 425gr at 200.The 405 to 450gr is good for long range(600)and probably a little more.That's the bullet I'd choose for 300 yds shooting thus avoiding the punishment that comes along with shooting the 500gr plus for the longest shots.
I used to shoot a 420 grain cast flat nose in my Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel. To keep accuracy at a decent level and recoil down in a light rifle, I loaded to a muzzle velocity of around 1250 - 1300 fps. Sighted about 2 1/2"- 3" high at 100 yards, bullet drop at 200 was 20", maybe a little more. My Shiloh Sharps shot this load only a little bit flatter but it had a much longer barrel than the Marlin and maybe another 100 fps in muzzle velocity.
I get 5in groups with my 86 Winchester using a bead front sight and tang rear at 200 yard. I load 350gr flat point over 26-28gr of 5744 at about 1300fps.
I get 5in groups with my 86 Winchester using a bead front sight and tang rear at 200 yard. I load 350gr flat point over 26-28gr of 5744 at about 1300fps.
I haven't fired a .45-70 at 200 yards in a long time, but groups of 5" sounds about right with a good load.
On their website Hornady's factory 325gr FTX ammo claims a zero drop (nothing about how their test was sighted in?) @ 200 yards. They show -27.8" @ 300 yards. It seems to me that restricting your shots to no more than 225 yards should give you a reasonable hunting group...
Lighter bullets should typically result in higher initial velocities and may extend the effective range...
My 45-70 Guide Gun is an early one (with factory porting). I never thought about shooting it those distances! I have 3 other 45-70's for that. Since you are having good luck with your current load, why not try that out at 300? You will need another 10 or 12 minutes of elevation (30 to 36 inches) I use a 300 grain RNFP Coated bullet over Trail Boss @ 1300ish for a plinking load in that gun and a 400 grain cast RN/GC (over a Marlin Only load of IMR3031) at about 2200 fps for a serious stopping load. (Serious recoil too!)
If you decide to load Hornady's soft poly tipped bullets, you will need to trim you brass way back! Their factory load is flat shooting (sort of) but is fairly hard kicking compared to factory velocity 300 grain FN.
I used to use a 425 grain cast semi-spitzer FP over AA 5744 in a 26" 1886 at 100 yards and got sub MOA groups.
In Ohio, the nice thing about 45-70 is, It will kill ANYTHING you encounter, and there might be something left to eat too!
I shoot the 45/70 out to 1,000 yards on occasion using original 1873 and 1884 Trapdoor rifles.
I use a cast 405 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps to duplicate the original Frankford Arsenal load. Keep in mind that the rear sights on the military rifles were developed for this type of shooting and my better Trapdoors will generally hold 2 to 2 1/2 MOA with well cast bullets.
Now for the Guide Gun. 300 yard shooting should be a piece of cake if you have a sight that is capable of providing the needed elevation. I use a Lyman 66 on my 1895 Limited rifle for all shooting with it. I also use a blade (post) front sight for more precise sight alignment and sight picture in aiming than the factory bead front sight.
So with a 405 grain cast bullet zeroed at 100 yards you'll need to come up approximately:
100 yards = Zero
200 yards = + 11 MOA
300 yards = + 25 MOA
Wind can be an issue at long range and the Lyman or military sights are more than capable of providing the necessary deflection to stay on target.
I generally shoot from the cross-ankle sitting position for comfort and to rock back a bit with recoil. Lots of shooters use crossed shooting sticks and a prone or sitting position for long range shooting.
Here is the Lyman 66 sight on my 1895.
__________________
Keep your powder dry.
Last edited by Scharfschuetzer; 03-08-2021 at 02:34 AM.
I typically shoot at a 12" steel plate at 300 yards with my Italian made Winchester 1886 rifle and do the same with my Uberti 1876 in 45-75, both with tang rear sights. Of course both are long barreled guns. My load is a 300 grain jacketed bullets and 43 grains of 3031, giving me around 1500 fps, in both leverguns and find that they rarely miss at that distance. Extrapolate 100 yard results to get pattern at 300 yards. It works out that 12" pattern at 300 yards is about 4 MOA @ 100 yards and I can shoot a little less than 4" pattern at that distance.
In my experiences, levergun accuracy is that they give adequate accuracy, and out to 100 yards and you will kill a deer on the spot every time, but at 200 or 300 results would be questionable. They were simply not designed or built to be spot on at those extended distances.
In my experiences, levergun accuracy is that they give adequate accuracy, and out to 100 yards and you will kill a deer on the spot every time, but at 200 or 300 results would be questionable. They were simply not designed or built to be spot on at those extended distances.
My expierance is somewhat different. My 1886 "Winchester" is a Browning brand and made by the Japanese in 1986. I easily get 1.5" at 100 yards rapid fire, and sub 1" groups slow fire. (This gun is a 26", 1" octagon barrel.)
My 45-70 Sharps 1874 is an early Shiloh Sharps from Farmington NY and made in 1974. (30" 1.125" Octagon barrel) Plinking loads (300 gr over Trail Boss) will group 5/8 to 3/4" at 100 yards with a good tang and a globe front sights. Heavy bullet and Black Powder loads are running 2 MOA +/- as far as my 65 year old eyes can dee the targets (about 400 yards max!)
These guns cost 2 to 3 times what their Italian cousins cost, and you do get what you pay for. Most people don't need 400 yard black powder rifles!) 105 yards is the longest shot I ever took in any Cowboy shooting event!
Trying long shots with a Guide Gun, is like trying to goose hunt with a grouse gun!
When hunting, Missing you target animal is not the worst thing you can do! Wounding and not recovering is far worse. And hitting someone or their home is as bad as it gets! Stick to the realistic expectations of your weapon.
My expierance is somewhat different. My 1886 "Winchester" is a Browning brand and made by the Japanese in 1986. I easily get 1.5" at 100 yards rapid fire, and sub 1" groups slow fire. (This gun is a 26", 1" octagon barrel.)
My 45-70 Sharps 1874 is an early Shiloh Sharps from Farmington NY and made in 1974. (30" 1.125" Octagon barrel) Plinking loads (300 gr over Trail Boss) will group 5/8 to 3/4" at 100 yards with a good tang and a globe front sights. Heavy bullet and Black Powder loads are running 2 MOA +/- as far as my 65 year old eyes can dee the targets (about 400 yards max!)
These guns cost 2 to 3 times what their Italian cousins cost, and you do get what you pay for. Most people don't need 400 yard black powder rifles!) 105 yards is the longest shot I ever took in any Cowboy shooting event!
Trying long shots with a Guide Gun, is like trying to goose hunt with a grouse gun!
When hunting, Missing you target animal is not the worst thing you can do! Wounding and not recovering is far worse. And hitting someone or their home is as bad as it gets! Stick to the realistic expectations of your weapon.
Ivan
I've had a Shiloh Sharps .45-70 for about thirty years. I bought it used but I think it's a Montana-built gun. I've had a number of .45-70s over many years, but if you want a really accurate one, you can't do much better than a Shiloh Sharps. Also, these guns are heavy enough to make recoil much more tolerable than in a lightweight .45-70.
My interests are elsewhere now and I seldom shoot either of my .45-70s, but this is good cartridge for the cast bullet guys. I couldn't imagine using any jacketed bullet in the .45-70. There is no advantage over a cast bullet that fits well.
Last edited by rockquarry; 03-08-2021 at 11:59 AM.
The only load I now use in my Pedersoli Creedmoor is a 350gr Berry's PLFP in front of 31.5gr of IMR 4198. The target was at 200 yards. From the position of the sight I should have a couple hundred more to go if I had a range that I could shoot that far at.
Your mileage may vary and I am not one to bash Italian reproduction. I consider them to be fine firearms at least the quality of workmanship of Miroku if not better today. I stated that I could hit a 12" gong at 300 yards, but have no idea what the spread is. Your rifle may shoot better than mine, but there are lots of excuses that can be made about why I am not there yet.
I still state that leverguns are not built to give the kind of accuracy that you can always rely on at 300 yards. With the right load, the right sized bullet, right weight bullet, the OAL, etc. I can probably tighten up the group and I am still working at it. I also shoot the 45-90 Sharps at the bottom of my reproduction collection image, but shooting a single shot rifle cannot be compared to shooting a lever-action rifle. My Sharps is much more accurate than any of my leverguns will ever be, but the OP has a short barreled lever-action Marlin, not a single shot. Of course just about all modern bolt action rifles are more accurate than any of the above, especially if you put a scope on it.
Bottom line for me is would I rely on a levergun to cleanly kill big game at 300 yards, absolutely not.
Your mileage may vary and I am not one to bash Italian reproduction. I consider them to be fine firearms at least the quality of workmanship of Miroku if not better today. I stated that I could hit a 12" gong at 300 yards, but have no idea what the spread is. Your rifle may shoot better than mine, but there are lots of excuses that can be made about why I am not there yet.
I still state that leverguns are not built to give the kind of accuracy that you can always rely on at 300 yards. With the right load, the right sized bullet, right weight bullet, the OAL, etc. I can probably tighten up the group and I am still working at it. I also shoot the 45-90 Sharps at the bottom of my reproduction collection image, but shooting a single shot rifle cannot be compared to shooting a lever-action rifle. My Sharps is much more accurate than any of my leverguns will ever be, but the OP has a short barreled lever-action Marlin, not a single shot. Of course just about all modern bolt action rifles are more accurate than any of the above, especially if you put a scope on it.
Bottom line for me is would I rely on a levergun to cleanly kill big game at 300 yards, absolutely not.
I agree with you on the lever-action accuracy capabilities. There are always exceptional shooters and exceptional rifles, but for the vast majority of us, including the better shooters, 200 yards with a lever gun like an '86 is a very long distance and probably about max for consistent hits on target or game.
Thank all of you guys for the input.
Due to bullet and powder shortages I now have Hornady hollow point and Nosler 300 Grain round nose .I am loading H 4198 50 grain now . I will shoot it and see what she does.
Thanks again Dan
Don't forget to check out loads using 3031 and 5744,
3031, 5744, Varget, and Unique are a 4 powder assortment that will do just about any former military rifle round and most pistol rounds too. (a trick on British rounds, if you know how many grains of Cordite, subtract 1 grain, and you will be spot on with IMR 3031 also use very hot primers like Federal 215)
Lyman #45 has a Unique load for evert metallic cartridge in use circa 1975!
I know finding any powder is rough right now, but I'm believing "Better Days are coming!" having a pound of each is a great way to keep non-American standard guns firing.
A rear sight set for 100-150 yds, see through scope mounts and your scope set for 250 would kinda work. Express sights with flip up blades will work. I built one for my roller. A piece of keystock with 3 dovetails with flip up sights set for different ranges. Of course a heel mounted rear sight would give you even more elevation. I finally switched calibers from a .45-70 roller to a .25-06 ruger#1V for my deer rifle which eliminated the range issue.
I shoot the 45/70 out to 1,000 yards on occasion using original 1873 and 1884 Trapdoor rifles.
I use a cast 405 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps to duplicate the original Frankford Arsenal load. Keep in mind that the rear sights on the military rifles were developed for this type of shooting and my better Trapdoors will generally hold 2 to 2 1/2 MOA with well cast bullets.
Now for the Guide Gun. 300 yard shooting should be a piece of cake if you have a sight that is capable of providing the needed elevation. I use a Lyman 66 on my 1895 Limited rifle for all shooting with it. I also use a blade (post) front sight for more precise sight alignment and sight picture in aiming than the factory bead front sight.
So with a 405 grain cast bullet zeroed at 100 yards you'll need to come up approximately:
100 yards = Zero
200 yards = + 11 MOA
300 yards = + 25 MOA
Wind can be an issue at long range and the Lyman or military sights are more than capable of providing the necessary deflection to stay on target.
I generally shoot from the cross-ankle sitting position for comfort and to rock back a bit with recoil. Lots of shooters use crossed shooting sticks and a prone or sitting position for long range shooting.
I have a Warne base with 20 moa built in and using a Leupold VX6HD 3-18 CDS ZL2 scope .
I am 75 years old can't see like I when younger .
Just put it on the rifle last year I had it sighted in two inches high at 100 yds and was six inches low at 200 .
I will get it set up and see what happens
Thanks again
My interests are elsewhere now and I seldom shoot either of my .45-70s, but this is good cartridge for the cast bullet guys. I couldn't imagine using any jacketed bullet in the .45-70. There is no advantage over a cast bullet that fits well.
looking to shoot 45/70 marlin 150-300 yards
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