A GOOD CASE FOR NOT DUPLICATING BUFFALO BORE'S 38 SPL. "FBI LOAD"

I often come across a thread here and in other places for duplicating the infamous 38 Spl. Buffalo Bore "FBI load" which is a 158 grain +P SWCHP-GC bullet traveling at over 1,020 fps out of a 2" J Frame Revolver. I have personally Chronographed this load multiple times and have gotten a minimum of the 1,020 fps stated above and as much as 1040 fps depending on the weather conditions and chronograph used. This is one stout load and arguably the best load for use in a 2" snubby as long as one can handle the recoil.

Buffalo Bore ammo is pretty much the most consistent ammunition I have ever chronographed and it is also extremely accurate. Tim Sundle's quality is top notch - but very expensive as most of us already know. Therefore it is sort of a natural "thing" for Reloader's to try and duplicate. Is it wise to do so, one should ask?

Here's my take. Buffalo Bore states their "FBI Load" does not exceed safe pressures and is safe to shoot out of any modern firearm rated for +P. So for the purpose of this post let's take him at his word. We have no idea of what powder blend he is using, no idea what the pressure in CUP are, and no way to test them. For us to guess and load up bullets to the max may not be a wise decision. Unless someone has sophisticated pressure testing equipment and the know how, how are we supposed to know if we are over loading the cartridge?

Presumably, we are only purchasing and using this BB load for self defense - certainly not for daily plinking or target shooting practice. At $32 bucks a box of 20 rounds, the ammo is not cheap - but then again how much do you really need - 3 or 4 boxes? That should last a long long time even after test firing a few to see how they shoot. For simulating the BB recoil, we can safely load up some higher velocity 158 grain ammo according to the Powder Company's published data and not exceed SAAMI spec's and in turn rest assured we are not going to have a disaster on our hands. It has also been advised by many of the so called "experts" in our industry that one should NOT use hand loads for actual SD shooting due to liability purposes, most of us here already understand that.

My proposal and what I do myself is to carry the BB ammo for SD, practice with similar but SAFE heavy loads within spec's to get the feel of the BB ammo and use lighter target loads for everything else. Of course I do shoot a few BB a year for familiarity - but not many!

So this brings us back to the original question - why have so many spent so much time on duplicating this specialized load? Why not just purchase a few boxes for SD/HD and leave the formulation up to the experts. Use other hand loads for target shooting, practice and plinking. Even if one COULD duplicate this load in a supposedly safe manner, why would one want to stress a revolver to the max and beat themselves up in the process? This has always puzzled me and every time I read a post on duplicating this load I want to post this thread - well, I finally have.

Because it's a puzzle, and a challenge. It's not about the destination it's about the journey.

I've never tried that but I've done several things that would definitely fall under the "why-when-there-is-an-alternative" category. I usually drop it once I complete the goal.

I came to the same conclusion.....

I'm sure I could duplicate it. All I would need is a well equipped laboratory with a lot of pressure testing equipment not only of guns equipped for such, but enclosed bombs to test individual batches of powder so that the 'blend' whether bought or mixed on site performed within a very tight realm of specs to avoid over pressuring.

So, if I want to get as close as I can to BB ammo, the best thing to do is buy BB ammo. I like (or used to like) testing hot loads, but I'm not equipped to go 'out of the books'.

I think the BB "FBI" load has a sort of "cult following". Unless I'm mistaken (common for me these days) it is just a 158 gr. gas checked LSWC bullet pushed to higher velocities, designed (?) for 38 Specials. Some shooters don't reload and the BB offers a more effective load than "standard" Store bought 38 Special ammo. Velocities are reported to be 1040 fps for 2" bbls to 1162 fps for 4" bbls...

Another fact is that most reloaders that I know like to "experiment" with different loadings for different purposes. The "FBI" load gets a lot of talk around the range, gun shop and forums, so I believe many "jes wanna try it in my gun".

FWIW; My "MDI" (that's me) SD load for my 3" 38 is a cast DEWC loaded over a max. but not +P charge W231. I can shoot this load way better than a hefty 158/160 gr bullet at 900+ fps...

I pretty much had that same attitude about reloading in general.

Why not just buy factory loads? Let them worry about load development.

But then along came the ammo crisis, and I'm at least considering getting into reloading.

For many people, reloading is a hobby and a recreation and a challenge.

So I would not question their choice of hobbies.

I have a friend who collects and restores tractors. His latest project is a full sized Caterpillar road grader.

But he lives on 160 acres in them middle of nowhere and already knows all about diesel and gas engine rebuilding.

I live on a city lot and have no use for a tractor or road grader.

To each his own.

I have loaded the soft Speer 158 lead "FBI" style bullet in my M49 snub nose
with one powder up to 970fps but found the recoil very heavy and like my revolver
too much, to put it through such high pressure loads.

Each shooter needs to know what fps amd preassures in their weapon will work for them
in a SD load but with all the new bullet designs out there that have been proven to penetrate and expand............

I see no reason to load my M49 past 850fps, since it is a light J frame.

If I had a 2" K frame, I would not worry about the added pressures that the real "FBI load" puts out, in the 38 special case.

The "FBIload" was a great improvement for the LE force back in the 70's
but in 2021, there are loads that will work as well or better that don't recoil as heavy
or will work loose the revolver as quickly as the heavy 158 gr load.

If you like the "Maxi load".............. go for it.

Saw a Super Blackhawk with a swollen chamber.
How swollen?
The cylinder couldn’t make a complete rotation.
We discussed at length- what load would swell that chamber that much without rupturing it?

I know that Buffalo Bore does not "blend" ������ powders, or obtain "secret powders" that are not available to other manufacturers, or near equivalent powders available to the public. If there were a physics-defying magical powder, word would soon get out and everyone would be using it, and the other powder manufacturers would make their version of it.

The only other option available then is to increase the pressure until the desired velocity is achieved. An overload, even a significant overload, will not blow up a gun. Repeatedly shooting very high pressure loads will wear a gun much more rapidly than normal loads, but will not blow up a gun unless grossly over the line.

BB just loads 'em up. Their ammo will wear out a gun more quickly, but there is little danger of blowing one up.

Unless one has access to non cannister grade powders & a means to test pressures not possible to get equal performance safely . It's not a load I'd prefer in a J frame . When CCW a Model 65 3" or a 2.5" 19/66 good load as it doesn't give up much to the Rem 357 125 JHP GS load ( Fed 357B is another matter ) & shorter cases easier to eject . BTW BB load is low flash . IMHO if one is using a 38 special & can handle the recoil it's an effective option .

Warren Sear said:

I know that Buffalo Bore does not "blend" ������ powders, or obtain "secret powders" that are not available to other manufacturers, or near equivalent powders available to the public. If there were a physics-defying magical powder, word would soon get out and everyone would be using it, and the other powder manufacturers would make their version of it.

The only other option available then is to increase the pressure until the desired velocity is achieved. An overload, even a significant overload, will not blow up a gun. Repeatedly shooting very high pressure loads will wear a gun much more rapidly than normal loads, but will not blow up a gun unless grossly over the line.

BB just loads 'em up. Their ammo will wear out a gun more quickly, but there is little danger of blowing one up.

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I agree. There's no free lunch... If such powder existed you can guarantee every manufacturer would be selling something similar and advertising the heck out of it.

The fact that guns don't blow up or exhibit extra very soon with loads like this is a testament to the quality, strength and durability of firearms today as much as anything else.

FWIW Any time I've loaded such rounds it was with the intention of shooting in a .357 Magnum.

People make a fuss about "non-canister grade" powders, but in reality these are powders that do not meet the strict tolerances of powders sold retail to the public.

I had a friend who worked for Federal who told me that powder arrived in great quantities at a time, and when a new lot arrived, they would develop a unique charge for a given caliber. Nothing new to hand loaders, except tolerances were looser, and they had pressure testing equipment. Never once did they "blend" any powder.

BB does not load in quantities anywhere near what Federal does, but I'm sure they carefully develop new load data for each new lot of powder they receive.

The difference in allowable .38spl pressure at SAAMI is 17,000, +P is 20,000psi and European CIP at 23,200psi. I think BB is probably about 22,000psi. I don't think that is too much for serious defense purposes. Like stated above, how many are you going to shoot in a real situation. I load some .38spl ammo on the warm side but use either current published loads or historic loads with a long track record. 2400, Unique, Power Pistol, VV N340, VV 3N37, and others. I usually keep my .38spls loaded with either these or 135gr GDSBs or Remington FBI loads from my stash. For practice I either use cheap factory loads or more likely normal handloads..........

A friend gave me a program called QUICKLOAD. I do not advocate the use of hot loads This program will give you all the info that you need to duplicate a safe loading. If your load is to hot or to slow it will let you know that also. Along with the FPS and the ME, it also gives the chamber pressure for the loading that you are using. I have an Colt Model 1909 U.S. Army in .45 Colt. I wanted to duplicate the War Departments load of a 250 Grain bullet at 750 FPS (this load was in the requirements set forth by the WD to Colt). The Quickload program gave me 29 different loadings to accomplish this load. I think it is a good program.

His isn’t the FBI load.

This is - I was issued this box of ammo by the FBI when I was an agent. This actual box.

It does about 890 fps from a 2” barrel.

He should call it something else.

No matter what you have......

THE PILGRIM said:

Saw a Super Blackhawk with a swollen chamber.
How swollen?
The cylinder couldn’t make a complete rotation.
We discussed at length- what load would swell that chamber that much without rupturing it?

Click to expand...

...there is always the inclination to 'push' it a little more. Some people would swell the barrel on a howitzer trying for that 'little bit more.'

However they do it.....

Warren Sear said:

People make a fuss about "non-canister grade" powders, but in reality these are powders that do not meet the strict tolerances of powders sold retail to the public.

I had a friend who worked for Federal who told me that powder arrived in great quantities at a time, and when a new lot arrived, they would develop a unique charge for a given caliber. Nothing new to hand loaders, except tolerances were looser, and they had pressure testing equipment. Never once did they "blend" any powder.

BB does not load in quantities anywhere near what Federal does, but I'm sure they carefully develop new load data for each new lot of powder they receive.

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....they need to have very tight quality control (pressure testing) to get so close to max. pressure without going over it. I think that is what you pay for, the tight quality control.

rwsmith said:

....they need to have very tight quality control (pressure testing) to get so close to max. pressure without going over it. I think that is what you pay for, the tight quality control.

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I believe you are right about that. I think the major manufacturers load light to allow for loose tolerances in their procedures. Their standard pressure loads run about 16,000psi and the +Ps runabout 18,500psi. That leaves a lot of meat on the bone. If a maker is bumping the limit it makes a big difference. I use a RCBS electronic scale-dispenser and see a scale readout on every charge. If it throws 5.1 of Unique instead of 5.0 I dump it back in the hopper and throw a new charge.

sigp220.45 said:

His isn’t the FBI load.

This is - I was issued this box of ammo by the FBI when I was an agent. This actual box.

It does about 890 fps from a 2” barrel.

He should call it something else.

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Uhhhhh.....weren't you supposed to turn that in when you retired????? I mean you could probably keep the one you carried in your shirt pocket just tell them you either shot it or lost it, but you need to return the rest

CAJUNLAWYER said:

Uhhhhh.....weren't you supposed to turn that in when you retired????? I mean you could probably keep the one you carried in your shirt pocket just tell them you either shot it or lost it, but you need to return the rest

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Hahahaha, you should see my garage!

rwsmith said:

....they need to have very tight quality control (pressure testing) to get so close to max. pressure without going over it. I think that is what you pay for, the tight quality control.

Click to expand...

I think they regularly exceed maximum pressure.