XTP COAL (45ACP)

mikerjf

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Loading some 45 230g XTPs... the recipe calls for a minimum COAL of 1.210".

With the 45acp case, once you are down to about 1.230" the bullet shoulder is reaching the case rim. Any shorter and the rim would be "unsupported" by the bullet. Looks weird and so it probably is. Certainly can't help feeding.

Does anyone really load shorter, such that the bullet shoulder disappears into the case?

(I understand that you *can* load longer than min, I'm just wondering why someone would spec a min that has the bullet disappearing into the case.)
 
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Ask yourself some diagnostic questions: Right bullet? Correct loading data? Does it agree with other data sources? Is the case length correct?
 
(I understand that you *can* load longer than min, I'm just wondering why someone would spec a min that has the bullet disappearing into the case.)

Hornady 10th says 1.230" minimum for the 230gn XTP. Their previous manual called for 1.210". Other sources calling for 1.210" are obviously behind on their updates.
 
It all depends on the bullet and the Hornady bullet is one style that can get away with a very short OAL, with a FN or JHP design.

The Speer 230 gr. TMC RN on the other hand calls for a OAL of 1.275 in one manual.

I have yet to see a manual list a loading where the bullet is deep enough when seated to pass the cylinder wall at the Ogive.
 
Minimum vs. Maximum...?

When the OAL is too short (or too long) to function in your firearm there are only two questions: why does this not work and at what safe load will it work? CAN IT WORK?

Once you know what bullet types and at what bullet lengths these will function in your pistols (revolvers are easier) the question becomes rather simple: what load with what powder?

I test 1st for function: then one can work up (or down) for accuracy and velocity. It all depends upon where you want (need?) to go.

Just IMHO.

CHEERS!
 
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Minimum vs. Maximum...?

When the OAL is too short (or too long) to function in your firearm there are only two questions: why does this not work and at what safe load will it work? CAN IT WORK?

Once you know what bullet types and at what bullet lengths these will function in your pistols (revolvers are easier) the question becomes rather simple: what load with what powder?

I test 1st for function: then one can work up (or down) for accuracy and velocity. It all depends upon where you want (need?) to go.

Just IMHO.

CHEERS!

+1;
Your weapon will let you know what OAL feeds and what length gives the best accuracy.
Load short, medium and long at different fps and you will find out
in a hurry what that bullet weight will do for you.

No chrony is needed...... just holes in paper tells the story.
 
Hornady Reloading Handbook 8th edition
45 ACP
Hornady 230 grain , XTP - HP #45160
C.O.A.L. - 1.230"

1.230" is what is specified by Hornady in the reloading manual for the XTP bullet .
Where did you get the number 1.210" ... it isn't correct ...too short .

Be careful where you get data ... not all bullets are exactly the same .
OAL's are best gathered from the bullet manufacturer's manual or data center ... other makes of bullets can be longer or shorter and thus the OAL given will be incorrect .
Gary
 
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It's not unknown for manufacturers to make slight changes to existing products without any notice. [In fact, if you read all the fine print on any product information, it's frequently stated that the maker is free to make product changes without notice.] Or, for wrong data to show up in loading manuals. While computers make text revisions much easier than the old ways, it's also much easier to screwup. Proof reading seems to be a lost art.

BTW, the 1.210 is in the Hornady 9th edition manual. Works just fine with the Sierra 230 gr JHP.
 
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Hornady 10th says 1.230" minimum for the 230gn XTP. Their previous manual called for 1.210". Other sources calling for 1.210" are obviously behind on their updates.

Hornady changed the profile of their 230 xtp awhile back.
 
Hornady Reloading Handbook 8th edition
45 ACP
Hornady 230 grain , XTP - HP #45160
C.O.A.L. - 1.230"

1.230" is what is specified by Hornady in the reloading manual for the XTP bullet .
Where did you get the number 1.210" ... it isn't correct ...too short .

Be careful where you get data ... not all bullets are exactly the same .
OAL's are best gathered from the bullet manufacturer's manual or data center ... other makes of bullets can be longer or shorter and thus the OAL given will be incorrect .
Gary

In the 9th edition it is 1.210” for all the .45 ACP 230s except the 230 FN, which is 1.200”.

Given the change from 8th to 9th and then back to 1.230” in the 10 edition I stongly suspect an editing error.

In that regard the OP deserves a great deal of credit for recognizing the load as published just didn’t look right and “TLAR” (that looks about right) has a definite place in hand loading practice.

There will always be changes in components and data - most accurate but in rare cases not and you need to use reasonable judgment when those rare errors and oddities happen.

When you get into substituting bullet types, primers, etc the need for good judgment and discretion increases exponentially.

——-

In terms of the 1911 OAL and point shape both interact with the magazine feed lips and feed ramp to produce reliable functioning - or not. It helps to understand how it all works.

57045637-CAB9-483F-A345-B5AA3F12B8D9_zpsvzqrjwdk.jpg


The original tapered lips on military 1911 magazines (left side in the picture above) were designed for the 230 gr FMJ. The .45 ACP ball round had an OAL of 1.275”. That long length meant the nose of the round engaged the feed ramp fairly early in the feed process and the tapered lips allowed the base of the case to start rising slowly and immediately. That allowed the rim to rise into the extractor early as well, before the round started to angle upward excessively. That early engagement of the rim also provided fully controlled feed of the round.

Load a dummy round with a RN FMJ bullet at 1.275” and then assemble your 1911 without the recoil spring so you can hand cycle it slowly. You most likely find that it deeds the round from a tapered lip military magazine (if you can still find one) in a silky smooth manner like a well oiled sewing machine.

Next load up a shorter dummy round like a a 230 gr XTP in the 1.230” range and try it with the same magazine. Depending on point shape an OAL at some point you’ll reach a length where the base of the cases rises so much before the bullet engages the feed ramp that it just rams straight into the feed ramp and jams where the feed ramp in the frame meets the feed ramp in the barrel, bringing the slide to a full stop.

The use of flat points and early hollow points in the 1920’s and 1930’s is what prompted Colt to design the “commercial” or “hybrid” magazine (center in the picture above). This magazine has feed lips with less taper that are also much shorter to release the base of the bullet sooner.

With this magazine the longer 230 gr FMJ round will engage the feed ramp with the base lower and with the round having more angle and the bullet will end up in the opening of the chamber with a fair amount of upward angle at about the same time the shorter feed lips release the base so the round can pivot over the lip of the chamber into the chamber. The result is not nearly as smooth and it loses some of the controlled feed, but it works with reasonable reliability.

The commercial magazine’s feed lips keep the base lower on the shorter bullets so that they contact the feed ramp at the appropriate slightly upward angle so that the bullet then rises reasonably smoothly up into the chamber while the rim rises reasonably smoothly into the extractor.

The vast majority of magazines sold with 1911s today have some variation of the commercial/hybrid feed lips.


The commercial magazines work pretty well until you start using really short bullets like the Hornady 185 gr SWC (1.135” OAL) or the even lighter 155-170 gr SWC bullets you’ll encounter the same issue of the bullet smacking into the feed ramp at too shallow an angle as the base has risen too much. Initially the solution (and you see it old school 200 and 185 gr SWC bullet designs) was a fairly long and skinny point on the SWC bullet that increased the OAL and let it engage the feed ramp sooner.

However the short OAL problem eventually led to the “wadcutter” or “parallel” lip magazine (right side in the picture above). These magazine have short feed lips like the commercial magazine but with no taper at all. They hold the base down until the bullet reaches the feed ramp, gets the proper angle and then releases the base of the bullet entirely.

The long 230 gr FMJs however don’t work well with these magazines. One of two things happens.

First, the bullet ends up with an excessive angle and in turn the rim enters the extractor at an excessive angle and gets stuck, causing the slide to stop about 1/8” out of battery. That jam can normally be resolved by rapping the back of the slide to force it into battery.

The other thing that can happen is the angle on the round is so great that the bullet nose ends up jammed between the top of the barrel and the frame. That’s a nasty 3 point jam that will require you to eject the magazine to clear. Ironically some shooters take the first problem and turn it into the other. They reason that if it needs a little more force to come into battery a heavier recoil spring will do the trick. What the heavier spring often does do is hit the bullet harder, causing an even higher angle on the bullet as it deflects up the feed ramp even harder and faster ending up in the space above the barrel between the barrel and frame.

You can get the same failures with some hollow points etc at some OALs. Some gunsmiths “fix” this by reprofiling/opening up the extractor so that the rim can enter at a sharper angle. However that can cause extraction and ejection issues - and the right fix is to just use the right magazine fed lip design.

Finally there is the Wilson 47D magazine (not pictured above). With this design the bullet starts out higher and flatter in the magazine and stays that way as the feed lips just sort of throw the round up in front of the slide which then just bats it into the chamber. It gives up all pretense of controlled feed, but it does work for a reasonable number of bullet and 1911 combinations. The downside is that the extractor has to snap over the rim, so again a reprofiled extractor is often needed. I own a few of these but I’m not a big fan as again the correct fix is the correct magazine for the bullet and OAL. But some people swear by them.

——

Velocity and slide velocity also play a role in reliable feeding. One of the major mistakes 1911 owners make is deciding they want to “upgrade” their 1911 with an extra power recoil spring. Sometimes they think it’ll reduce battering of the frame but that’s not actually true. There is no free lunch so while it might reduce battering of the frame in recoil, it’ll increase the wear that occurs when the slide comes back into battery. The only time you want a heavier recoil spring is with truly heavier loads that are otherwise allowing the barrel to drop out of engagement with the slide with excessive pressure in the chamber. This causes the shoulders on the locking lugs to start rounding off. In this case, and only this case, a heavier recoil spring is helpful - but backing off on the load is a much better idea.

You really don’t need a .45 ACP +P load. It’s already a .45 ACP and if you look at gel results you’ll note that a +P load with a properly designed .45 ACP hollow point just reduces penetration a few inches with no significant increase in expansion. Modern .45 ACP hollow point designs expand just fine and penetrate 14-18” with a standard pressure load. If you are not getting adequate expansion, use a better bullet rather than a +P load that just increase recoil and wear on the pistol.

That said, one of the feed issues with heavy loads and too light a spring is excessive slide velocity where the slide rebounds off the frame and comes back at an excessive slide velocity. That reduces the slide over run time and can cause problems with the round not having time to rise out of the magazine.

Conversely too heavy a spring can reduce the slide
over run distance and time, where the slide does not fully cycle and the round again may not rise fat enough from the magazine. In that case a lighter spring is needed. You’ll see that in .45 ACP competitors in plate shoots where power factor isn’t an issue but where reduced recoil and recovery time is a big concern.

——

In short:

- don’t mess with the spring weight unless you *really* have a need and understand what you are doing; and

- stay with the stock commercial feed lipped magazine unless you are shooting something distinctly shorter (or are lucky enough to find tapered lip magazines if you shoot a lot of 230 gr FMJ or RN bullets); and

- stay away from +P loads. There just isn’t any need.
 
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