I’m looking to make some light, plinking loads. Bullet is a swaged Hornady 158gr lead roundnose. Winchester small rifle primer. I’ve got several powder options, but I’m wanting to use Win 231 as I’m saving my other powders for other calibers.

This is my first experience with 231, and I’m a bit confused. I’ve looked at 3 different references and they all vary greatly. One shows a starting load of 4.2 grains, and one shows a starting load of 3.1 gr. I don’t understand the extreme variation I’m seeing. This is new powder, if that makes a difference.

What say you guys? Gun is a nice old Colt Official Police, I just want to shoot light plinking loads in it, I like treating her gently.

Thanks!

For that kind of load, I have been using 3.2 grains W231 (smallest Lee dipper).

4.2 is full .38spc and will send a 158 850-900 fps.



You probably want maybe 3.5.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. Any trouble with 231 metering correctly in a RCBS uniflow powder measure? As I said, it’s my first rodeo with this powder, I generally stick to unique and 2400 for my revolvers.

Lyman 49 shows a staring load of 3.6, but I’m not sure how different the profiles are. I’d start there, especially with the rifle primers. My notes show that I loaded 158 grain swc with 3.8 and 3.9 grains of HP38, but that was back before I had a chronograph.
Good luck,
David

Should meter at least as well as either of those.

I use HP38. Same exact powder as 231. I believe I use 3.6 grains but I’d have to get my manual out. It meters dead on every time. It’s the only powder I use for all my handgun rounds.

4.2 gr is pretty stout for a starting load with a 158 gr bullet. Are you sure of it? I shoot 4.0 gr of 231 with a 158 gr cast bullet. It works great. Some sources have shown 4.0 gr to be over-max, but I'm a skeptical of that. Many people have shot 4.0 gr of 231 with the 158 for years.

Your Hornady bullet being a swaged bullet calls for lighter charges than cast bullets. I'd disregard the 4.1 gr starting load and go with your lower one. 231 meters perfectly. It's great in the 38 Special. You'd be had pressed to pick a better powder (other than its clone, HP38)

The only potential problem in using the SR primer in .38 Special cases is primer sensitivity. If you have not already been using them in your Colt, you might want to load 10 cases with them, then fire them. If all ten pop, you are good to go. The Colt OP is a stout revolver, fully capable of handling any .38 Special loads (even .38-44s) without damage.

Some noticeable published discrepancies in load data with 231/HP-38, but I've used 4 grs. with a 160 grain cast SWC (Hensley & Gibbs #51) without problem and it seems to be a very safe standard pressure load with a muzzle velocity of just over 800 fps from a 4" barrel. Accuracy is very good.

I have chronographed a variety of .38 spl loads with 231 powder. Manuals are all over the place when it comes to recommended charges of 231 for too many reasons to go into here. 4.0 grs is a mild load that will chronograph at 800 FPS out of a 4” barrel with a cast SWC. Less is sometimes recommended with swaged bullets only because of leading. 3.1 grs with a 158 gr bullet is way too light for clean burning with 231. 3.8 grs will give you a mild load of about 770 FPS with your swaged bullet and surely would seem to be light enough in your Colt.

Winchester/Hodgdon on-line reloading center says start with 3.1 and a max of 3.7.

Reloading Data Center | Hodgdon

My Winchester Load book (circa 1978) shows a bit higher.

As you see there are quite a few loaders who use 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr cast bullet. I use a CCI-500 SPP. That is my favorite 158gr cast bullet load in the .38 Special. It shots well in every .38/.357 gun I own.

I use a Lyman #55 powder measure and a Lee Pro Auto-Disk and both will meter W231 very well. Also like said above, W231=HP-38.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Winchester actually developed load data for 231, Hodgdon did not. They now own the marketing rights for Winchester powders. Their load data is a mix of data copied from other manuals and may be for swaged bullets from Speer or Cowboy action data or who knows what. Their data is the worst available. Realize that when you go online for Winchester data that you are getting Hodgdon’s mess and not real Winchester data.

When Winchester published loading manuals their load for 231 and 158 grain lead bullets 4.5 grains to replicate a standard .38 special load. 4.7 grains was listed as a +P load.

38 Special
Hornady bullet - 158 gr. LRN
Hornady Reloading Manual 8th edition :
W231 powder:
starting load - 3.2 grs. @ 650 fps
3.5 grs @ 700 fps.
3.8 grs. @ 750 fps.
4.1 grs. @ 800 fps.
Maximum Load - 4.4 grs. @ 850 fps.

Your idea for a light load , 3.1 or 3.2 or 3.3 grains of W231 should be just fine . I would test all three for accuracy !

The above data is for modern 38 specials , for the older revolvers like the Colt Police Positive Special , I have one also ,
I would call 3.8 to 4.0 grs as maximum ... the gun is old and the frame rather small in size .
Good luck,
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I'm all in favor of treating firearms gently and would never tell someone how they "should" do it. However; as you are surely aware the Colt Official Police is one well-built revolver. Unless it is a very, very early production or has some specific issues one generally does not need fear .38 Special loads near, or at, +P levels especially if one isn't feeding a steady diet of them on a regular basis.

I seem to remember that Colt advertised their OP as capable of handling the Heavy Duty ammunition intended for the .38/44 HD Smith & Wesson revolver. I own several OP revolvers and, like you, I don't hot-rod them but apparently they can take it. I do "occasionally" launch some "warmer" loads from them without ill effect.

Point is; it does not concern me much if I'm on the warmer side of mild insofar as wear & tear on a Colt OP.

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Ordnung muss sein
SWHF #789

I have used the Hodgdon data extensively and I respectfully disagree about it being a mess and used unknown bullets. All the data I have seen there clearly states what bullet is used. Perhaps I have missed something but then again maybe not'
The most important thing about any data is to remember it is a guide only. Each firearm is a rule unto itself. Proceed accordingly.

If you are really looking for light powder puff loads Trail Boss would be just the ticket . I realize you said " W231 " was the powder you wanted to try . Just keep the trail boss thing in mind . It is excellent for " light , plinking target loads " .
As far as " babying " the Colt OP , it's not necessary . It's ok to do that but definitely not necessary . Colt was heat treating the frames , cylinders etc long before S&W . Lots of rapid double action is what can take it out of time . Good luck , regards Paul

WAIT! Are you trying to tell me there is another powder to use in 38 target loads besides W231/HP38??

Ok, I’m exaggerating for effect, but I settled on this powder for target loads in both my 38s and 32 S&W Ls with perfect satisfaction.

Froggie

I've been loading 231 in every non-magnum handgun caliber I have ever loaded for. The RCBS Uniflow measure will drop literally exact duplicate loads of 231 if you keep the hopper at least 1/4 full. If the hopper gets too low the loads may lighten up a 1/10th or so.

It may not be the cleanest powder, but it is one of the most accurate powders across multiple calibers.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I like 231 for most handgun cartridges and could probably get by fine with no other powder, but for pure accuracy, I get slightly better results with Bullseye in the 9mm, .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 ACP/ Auto Rim. I use only cast bullets in handgun cartridges; whether or not the results would be the same with jacketed bullets, I don't know.

W231 is a powder that I don't use a lot of but I have jused in in my 2" J frame and several 6" 357 magnums.

With a lead 158 gr RN bullet my best accuracy came with a minimum of 3.5 grs of powder.
The 4.0 gr load in my J frame felt like a standard full load for the 38 special case.
Lyman has 4.0 grs listed ay 15,800 CUP. and is well below my full amount of powder that I use for a +P loading.

Have fun.

W231 is like Unique , you can find a load for dang near anything . Also like Unique below it's preferred pressure range it is dirty , in it's range it cleans up . It does leave a somewhat gritty carbon . IMHO it's hard to beat in 38 special with lead bullets . 3.1grs with a 148 HBWC is classic like 2.7grs Bullseye . With a 158 - 160gr 4.0 - 4.5grs , swaged stay lighter end , cast you gotta push a bit harder . I've shot tons of cast 158 - 160 loads with both 4.5grs W231 & Unique both are accurate in my guns .

I'd go on the light end. I'm another 4.0 guy but with swaged lead I'd go as low as accuracy would allow to avoid leading. Or you may find yourself adjusting the load to point of aim. If the 3.X prints high on the target increase the powder charge until it gets where you want it.

I use 4.3 of 231 under the Hornady 158 LSWCHP and it clocks 864 FPS in a 4” Colt Trooper, 782 FPS in a snubbie.

231 is great powder in this cartridge and it meters very well. W231 is the first powder I bought when I first bought a reloading press. I still have some in the old jerry can style bottles.

I think everyone covered it quite well above. All that is left is to give personal examples which, as you and others should always know, are subject to your own verification.

I love W231/HP38 for 38 special. It is flat accurate, meters well, mild shooting, fairly clean and did I mention very accurate.

I roll my own 158 Gr. SWC bullets and have excellent accuracy in my primary test firearm, 4" 28-2, with loads of 3.5 to 3.8. From my last bunch of loading once i these shot up at 3.8 I will load everything at 3.5. Never saw the need to use more powder when I can achieve what I am after - ACCURACY! Good luck

3.3GR 231 WITH A SWAGED 158GR BULLET IS AN AWESOME ACCURATE LOAD. ESPECIALLY FORM THAT TYPE OF COLT REVOLVER. JP

Over the past thirty something years I have loaded quite a variety of .38 spl lead bullet handloads to different velocity levels and with a lot of different powders. I have chronographed them all since I got my first chronograph way back around the early 80s. I cannot understand the trepidation that makes some handloaders insist on loading squib loads for solid, strong medium frame revolvers. I’ve tried them. 650 FPS squibs are poor loads that are inconsistent, dirty from poor burning of powder at the very low pressure levels, have high ES and yield poor accuracy. Loading to a velocity of a bit below factory level, 750-780 FPS or so creates far better loads and are not going to harm your revolvers people.

Consensus seems to be that everyone loves W231 in 38 special, that it meters well, and it's accurate in loads from 3.1 to 4.5 gr.. I love it too. Pick a charge and have fun shooting. You'll figure out what your gun likes.

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What could possibly go wrong?

My Speer #13 manual lists 3.8 as a starting load and 4.3 as a top load for standard pressure data with 231 for their 158 gr swaged lead bullets. For +P data they start at the 4.3 load and go up to 4.7 grs. This is very similar to the data provided by the original mfg, Winchester.

Nothing wrong with HP-38/W-231 in the 38 Special cartridge case. It's a good powder for light to full power loads in 38 Special. Might not be the cleanest burning powder by today's standards, but versatile and meters well through my RCBS Uniflow.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

231 is a very versatile powder. I've found it to be very accurate in all my non magnum calibers and in magnum target loads.

Like many others I load 4 grains in .38 special. Projectile is a 158 grain Berry's plated flat point.

I don’t have a chronograph and probably will never get one. I don’t test loads or tweak anything. I got into reloading after Newtown purely to be able to make paper punching ammo. I do have several manuals but pretty much just use the Hodgon site. I’ve compared the data from it to other manuals and while there is usually a mild variation between the site and some of the manuals(but isn’t there always variations between different sources?), the data on the site is in the same range as the manuals. I don’t change bullet types and I rarely even change primer brands (before the current madness where primers are impossible to get, I mostly used CCI. I have used a brick each of Winchester and Federal). I never load low range because I don’t want a squib, so I normally go middle of the round between minimum and maximum charge. If the minimum is 3.2 and the maximum is 3.8, I’ll load no higher than 3.6. Whenever I load a new caliber I will load 5 rounds at say 3.4, 5 at 3.5, and 5 at 3.6. When the all go bang I settle on the 3.6.

I weigh every charge and that’s why I like HP38. Dead on every time. Are there better powders out there? I’m sure. Never tried anything other than HP38 and the Red Dot I started with when powders were impossible to find. That metered horribly. I do have 3 pounds of Trail Boss. Haven’t even tried them yet and have no intention to unless I have no other choice. I prefer using one powder for everything. No chance of using wrong powder when I switch calibers that way.

James, I think that your confusion is caused because you are comparing 38 Special data to 38 Special +P data in a Speer loading manual. Flip back a few pages and you'll see alwslate is correct that 3.8 to 4.3 grains is the correct load data for 38 Special for what you want in your Colt.

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SWCA #3526

Hodgdon’s data of 3.1 grs starting and 3.7 grs as the dreaded word MAXIMUM for 231 and 158 gr lead bullets is just flat wrong. Their data is not developed by them and is just copied from a variety of sources. Those charge weights look like mislabeled copied data for Bullseye or 700x or some other very fast powder. Standard pressure maximum for the .38spl is 17,000 PSi. 20,000 PSi for +P loads. I still don’t understand why so many handloaders are scared to death to load anything much above squib level for the .38 spl in modern K frame S&Ws. 3.7 grs of 231 is below recommended starting level in the Speer #13 manual. Get one and you will learn that standard pressure maximum level is higher for both .32 acp and .380 acp than the 20,000 psi level for .38 spl. Relax folks. You’re not going to blow up your K frames if you dare venture in to the 14,000 psi range with your handloads.

In my collection of old Winchester load manuals the 4.0 starting 4.5 max seems to be the load for 158 lead SWC up until 2006 when it drops to a 3.7 max for lead SWC and 4.1 for jacketed. The current Hodgdens as noted above is 3.1 starting and 3.7 max for lead SWC and 3.8 starting and 4.3 max for jacketed.

Stu

That 3.7 max is Hodgdon’s nonsense. The pressure of that load is way below the 17,000 psi limit for std pressure .38 spl. Where they got that from is anybody’s guess. Maybe some Cowboy action data they copied. One thing you can be sure of is that is not data actually developed by Hodgdon and proven to be at standard maximum pressure level for the .38 spl. I looked at data in my Lyman 4th edition Cast bullet manual and found a load for 231 with their 158 gr cast RN bullet. The old CUP maximum for .38 spl std loads was 18,000 CUP. They show 3.5 grs of 231 with the 158 gr bullet at 9,600 CUP. Just a little over half of std pressure maximum.

Please reread my post. The drop to 3.7 max for lead comes from the 2006 Winchester loading manual.
Stu

How about a look see? My last ACTUAL Winchester published manual shows no such thing.

I have it on my desktop but for some reason can't upload it. I get this error message..
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Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.
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I'll contact Lee and see what's going on.

Stu

I'll try again. Printed and scanned the image.
PM me your email address and I'll send you the full color pdf reloading manual.

Stu

Attached Images

Win 2006.jpg (75.2 KB, 377 views)

I just checked the Hodgdon website regarding their so called MAXIMUM load of 3.7 grs of 231 with a 158 gr cast SWC. Velocity is listed as only 834 FPS out of a 7.7” pressure barrel at 14,600 CUP. Yep CUP, not psi. CUP maximum pressure was either 18,000 or 18,500, can’t remember without checking. This is undoubtedly light Cowboy action data. Just another example of Hodgdon’s ridiculous unreliable mix of copied data.

To put an end to this, I've copied the 2006 Winchester Reloading Data into my drop box and the link is
Dropbox - Winchester 2006 copy.pdf - Simplify your life

anyone can go and view the information.

There is an asterisk next to the load but I cannot find an explanation of the asterisk anywhere in the load manual. Perhaps someone will have better luck.

Stu

Thanks for the informative thread. I wound up going with 3.5grains to start with, and I’ll see how that works out. If it’s accurate, I’ll probably keep using that load. If it’s not, I’ll play around some.

I just looked at your 2006 data and as I expected Hodgdon’s data is just a copy of what’s in it. I can’t find the asterisk reference either but if you could you would probably see it refers to Cowboy or target load data. Several of the cast bullets so marked are RNFP types. The bottom line is that 3.7 grs of 231 is in NO way a maximum pressure load. Look at the 14,600 CUP pressure listed and compare it to the 18,500 CUP max for std pressure loads. Thanks for the information. Maybe it will help to clear up the misunderstanding about 231 and castbullets.

For what it's worth my Speer #12 manual has a load range of 4 to 4.4 grains of 231 with a velocity of 792 for the lower charge and 878 for the higher charge out of a 6" barreled S&W model 14. This is with a Speer 158 grain swaged lead round nose. I am not an expert but I would think you could lower the charge a few 10ths of a grain and not have problems.

When I loaded a full load of w231 in my 686 6" revolver with a 158 lead bullet and a 38 case........
my records show a 951 fps average.

My 2" J frame with Blue Dot powder can get the same fps.

Later.

I have used W-W 231 for years for 38 Special light target/plinking loads. 148 gr. HBWC with 3.1 gr. W-W 231. Chronograph shows 740 fps out of a 6" S&W K-38.