I recently bought a Model 25-2. It didn't take me long to learn I truly dislike moon clips and the claptrap for loading and unloading them. My thinking is .45 Auto Rim provides a logical solution. Thanks to a kind forum member, I have a good supply of .45 AR to mess with. Thank you quikdraw67!

Thinking ahead, and perhaps over-thinking, I see a dilemma. I always thought that .45 ACP and .45 AR are the same case other than being rimless or rimmed. I thought they have the same internal capacity. I planned to use standard .45 ACP loading information in the .45 AR.

Then I started looking through Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbooks. Both the 3rd and 4th editions have separate sections for .45 ACP and .45 AR. OK, I thought, they used different guns and are publishing different velocities. It's not that simple. The max/min load, pressures and velocities vary between the two cartridges using the same bullet and powder. I doubt primer differences between the data sets have much effect. LOA isn't responsible.

Perhaps this just reflects different test data sets taken at different times by different people. But it has my attention. Are these cartridges significantly different from an internal ballistics standpoint?

If there is any material difference between the two it never appeared to me and didn't make any noticeable difference. I use both in my 25-2s and 625s with the same load; mostly cast 230 or coated 230 grain bullets.

I first went with AR cases too because I didn't want to mess with moon clips but with the proper tools and good quality clips they're actually easy to use and fast.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

The AR has a lower max SAMMI pressure than the ACP. That said the interior capacity is nearly the same. I think the reason is so many Enfield top breaks that were rechambered to ACP, they can't really handle ACP pressures . In and N frame you can use ACP data with no worries.

For whatever reasons, the SAAMI Maximuym Average Pressure for the 45 AR has always been lower than that for the 45 Auto. The 45 AR has never had transducer values, staying with copper crusher data.

The SAAMI MAP for the 45 AR is 15000 CUP while the 45 Auto is 18000 CUP.

Used to reload for a 1917 Colt, got some AR cases and shell holder,
Loaded moderate cast bullet loads.
Also don’t like Moon Clips, AR reloads never missed a beat!

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Thanks, guys! I knew I came to the right place. It never occurred to me that the two cartridges would have different pressure limits. Good to know some of the Auto Rim's background. My initial plan for the 25-2 is Bullseye matches. I'll be shooting some light loads. Pressures will be low.

Sierra has considerable "heavy" data for .45 ACP / Auto Rim revolvers.

I much prefer Auto Rim brass to ACP brass for revolver use. Much more convenient and no clips or tools needed, but some like the ACP brass and the clips and tools. That's okay, too.

I have only fired low velocity target loads in my 25-2 and although AR cases make things easy, my 25-2 will fire every ACP I ever fed it and to eject the cases I just turn the gun upside down and the cases fall out. Very few need to be coaxed with a pencil up the cylinder to remove the case.
I only use ACP cases on my practice ammo

I have 5 acp revolvers. I have 0 auto rim cases but over 100 full moon, a bunch of 1/2 moon clips. They are way cheaper and faster than any "speed loaders". I never mess with clips at the range. I can reload with clips faster, pick up my brass faster. My empties in clips go in a coffee can. When I am going to reload it only takes a few seconds to remove brass from clip. Once loaded it don't take long to put a couple 100 rounds in clips. You can do it and watch TV

With good tools and practice it doesn't take much more time to load rounds in a moon clip than a speed loader or magazine. The extra time needed is made up for by not wasting time picking up brass or speed
loaders

If you want to shoot rimmed 45 rounds, get a 45 colt

I shoot both, and use 45 ACP load data for both. Not a problem in my model 25.

I did find however that the 45 AR brass will not fit in the 45 ACP shell holder that I use to de-prime my brass, nor will they fit in the hand primer I use to prime brass with. I had to get a special shell holder and priming attachment for my rock chucker to de-prime and prime the brass. It makes more work for me than just using the moon clips with a good loader. I got the BMT N45-6 and it makes loading the clips a breeze.

My 45 AR brass is probably not going to get much use from now on.

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Have a preference for the 45 AR cases, and imo Starline cases are much better than Rem. Also have clips, although prefer the 1/2 moon clips. Have found it takes maybe up to .2 gns more hp-38 to get same velocity out of an ar case, than a 45 acp case. That could be due to any number of things.

Have 5 45 acp revolvers and thousands of AR cases.

If memory serves, Sierra's new manual did away with the heavier loads for revolvers section

Try to rubber moon clips Brownells sells, quick to load and unload. I shoot mostly SWC cast in my 25-2 and 1911s now with ammo situation. SWCs are harder to load with clip in 25-2 but at range there is no rush. By chance ever used for protection or hunting jacketed rounds load just fine.

I generally load my AR reloads lighter than my acp as I have a bunch of 1911s and ar pcc’s and need the power to run them. I also run my acp loads through a lee bulge buster so they work in all my toys. I always use moonclips whenever I shoot my 625 in a combat match instead of a 1911. Get all my brass back that way.

The pressure differences can be seen on page 24 and 32 here

The 45 Auto Rim was brought out by Peters in 1923(?) to allow the shooters of the S&W Model 1917 a rimmed cartridge to use. The rim is thick to duplicate the thickness of the moon clip and the rim on the 45 ACP cartridge. It was intended to be used mostly with lead bullets thus at lower pressures, but it was merely the ACP case with a rim. Identical in every way except the rim.

They can be loaded to the same pressure. Starline brass is actually stronger than the original stuff and can most likely handle 45 Super pressures.

There’s was never any consideration of using them in the Wesley or other improperly converted revolvers.

Kevin

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Can you recommend some good tools? I see plenty of de-mooning tools that seem to work well. Inserting rounds in the clips is more of a hassle. I see pricey tools that will insert all six with a quick rotation. I'm disinclined to spend $90 on one without some confidence it will work well.

Rubber moon clips sound like a great idea. I searched Brownells and came up empty-handed. I suspect they've been discontinued or (more-likely) it's pilot error. Do you have a link?

When I bought my 25-2 it came with 100 pieces of AR but I quickly found out that my Forster press required a special case holder. Since I also got about a dozen moon clips I figured I would give them a try. Eventually bought the BMT mooner, a great tool. Love it. Using moon clips is great, you can do all that at home so no wasted time at the range. Wouldn't change a thing.

BMT Mooner is a great tool but pricey.

The moon clip tool made by BMT is great, but it is quite expensive. I finally bought one and am very happy I did.

I like auto rims too.

Attached Images

100_0569.jpg (130.8 KB, 73 views)

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S&W Accumulator

The benefit of shooting 45 ACP in a revolver is you can use the same ammo and same reloading setup as in pistols. Doinking around with 45 AR seems like an extra hassle to me...

EZmoonclip.com sells the polymer clips or just google "Rimz 45 ACP". They are $40 for 10. Just but them from the company that makes them. I have clips for my 929 from them. I was going to buy 45 ACP ones from them but haven't gotten around to it. It's not that hard to load and unload them by hand. I just use 2 wooden dowel of the appropriate size to unload them. One dowel in the center of the clip and one dowel in the case to pull it off. I don't use any tools to load them. Some cases are easier than others. Some are a bear to get in and out of the metal clips. I just keep all my revolver brass in clips unless it's being reloaded so no difficult to use clips get introduced into the system.

It's easy to measure case capacity of 45 ACP and 45 AR if you have empty cases of each. Fill with water or fill with powder and see which one holds more. If they hold the same then pressure will be the same.

Brownells number#100-001-684. Rimz S&W Speedloader. From my Master Catalog # 73, 2021-2022 page 250.

While the BMT N45-6 is a great way to go, I use this Model from TKC


You don' even need to spend much to have on as you can make one yourself out of steel, aluminum, hard wood or even UHMW. A post that the clip fits over and hold clip up of base about .040 and a pivoting lever to snap in the brass. I just have a pile of loaded ammo and clips and set there and fill them. After a few you don't even need to look at what your doing.

I use the tube with a notch method to de clip.

I have moonclips for ACP and HKS speedloaders for Auto Rim for a 625. I use HKS and AR for 255 grain LSWC, moonclips and ACP for everything else.

If your 45 ACP revolver is a S&W, as it should be! You don't have to have any clips! The chambers are cut to headspace on the case mouth (like a 45 should). Extraction can be done with any stick, cleaning rod or a #2 pencil!

It seems silly to me that someone would avoid full or half-moon clips, but want a speed loaded. However, HKS makes a 45AR speed loaded Marked as a Model 25 is says AUTO RIM across the top of the silver knob. I picked a used one up last week for a friend with a Colt 1917.

I made a "Mooner" from a 7" piece of base board and 8" dowel rod. I line up 6 rounds nose to rim, in the board's round notch, then slide a full moon clip over the extraction groove and press in place using the dowel rod. I keep over a hundred full in a 50 Cal ammo can.

My 1917 BC and 625 of 1989 both thrive with full moons of ammo. My 1917 doubles as a mountain gun win with moons of SD ammo in my jacket pocket, and I like using a lanyard while canoeing or kayaking (and camping for that matter).

Ivan

In the early 80's I bought one box of AR brass for an Enfield that the chambers were hogged out, and ACP brass wouldn't extract on a moon clip. I pushed the AR brass out with a 3/8" dowel rod. That was my first 45ACP handgun, and last time I needed or wanted AR cases.

My 45 AR loads are identical to my 45acp loads. Same cartridge, but one has a rim.

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213th FBINA

I had 3".5" and 6 1/2" 45acp revolvers that I didn't use for EDC so I preferred 45AR brass.
When Walmart discontinued their Perfecta ammo I bought a ton of 45acp and 9mm.The 45acp could head space in my Model of 1950,pre 25s,25s and 625s and shoot well without moon clips but the empties needed to be removed with fingers one at a time.

Try finding 45AR cases

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I’ve tried them all and nothing works as well as the BMT!
I don’t know if you consider it too pricey or not but it’s totally and absolutely worth the price in the long run and makes moon clip usage a snap.

If I had known this from the beginning, I would have saved more than enough by not messing with the box of inferior also-ran tools that are sitting in a box on the back shelf gathering dust in my reloading room.

The reason that the data is different for ACP and auto rimmed is that older auto rimed revolvers were made differently and may not handle the same pressures. During WWI that wasn't an issue. Now it might be. With some of the newer clips made of a polymer or carbon fiber the rounds pop in and out by hand easily. I use both the polymer clips and steel clips as I was given both when I bought my 625-2 3". I use 45acp data to load my auto rimmer cases and have never had a problem. I also use the polymer clips mainly because I don't have to worry about using a demooner to take the cases out.

Different shell holders are required because the ACP case is rimless and the AR case has a rim, simple.

I use both types of brass. I load up a bunch of moon clips before I go the range. I’ve found a good pair of needle nose pliers works for loading moon clips. To demoon the brass I use the cheap pipe tool.

Ya need to back down there Ivan.........NONE of my 625's will constistantly fire 45acp without moon clips.......Chambers are bored too deep. Several miles back in this forum Tommy Campbell. Who worked and shot for S&W argued this point with S&W engineers and lost............SO.....Old guns yes/maybe......Newer guns......No

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S&W Accumulator

There was a time period when S&W eliminated the interior "ledge" in their 45 acp cylinders, but believe popular opinion brought them back. Had this discussion on some gun board awhile bacj with a non-believer. IMO, the ability to use regular brass without moon clips can certainly be an advantage in some cases. If i was a competitive shooter, would probably be more interested in moon clips. As it is, like the forceful ejection of a short rimmed case.

The 45 AR pressure standard was set in 1925 when Peters developed the round. It was intended at the time for only two guns. The S&W 1917 and the Colt New Service, aka, 1917. Those were the only two revolvers that used the AR. I think that they were lower pressure to save wear and tear on the revolver. It wasn't about safety because those guns were designed to fire the higher pressure military ball ammo just like the 1911. The 625 benefits from newer technology in metallurgy and engineering that have come along since 1925 but there's still a lot of 1917's out there to shoot the AR so the pressure level is kept at the 1925 level. That's the long way of saying that if you're shooting a 625 using AR, you can load any load that can go in a ACP. In fact, there's a few more options because you don't have to worry about feeding from a magazine and can use some different profile bullets. The moonclip/auto rim argument is a bit like the old Miller Lite, tastes great/less filling bit. Everyone is right. I dumped my moonclips and went to the auto rim in the middle of an IDPA season and never looked back. The half moonclips fixed a WW1 problem that I don't have so the less I have to fiddle with, the better I like it.

I edited this to change the moonclip fixing the WW1 problem to the half moonclip. There were no moonclips in 1917 that I know of. Just HALF moonclips.

I had a 25 back in the 80's and early 90's. Sadly I no longer have it. Convertable 45 ACP/45 Colt. I had a few moon clips, but when I discovered 45 AR brass, loaded it only with them. Same handloads as 45 ACP, same accuracy.

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Regarding the ability of the S&W ACP revolver to chamber an ACP without a moon clip (full, 1/2 or 1/3) it depends on what era your revolver was built. All of the blued revolvers were built to standards that allowed the ACP round to be chambered and fired by headspacing on the cartridge mouth, just like the 1911. When you get into the stainless steel revolvers and later, it becomes iffy. Some do, some don’t.

Here is a copy of an article by Brian Pearce, he explains it better than I.



Kevin

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45 acp works in my 25-2 without moon clips. Regardless, I use moon and half-moon clips. My 25-2 is particular about the thickness of the moon clips it will accept to permit proper cycling.

I’ve found that my reloads have enough bumps, bulges and rim damage that putting 6 in a moon clip will compound the out of spec dimensions and sometimes create issues chambering the loaded moonclip in my 625 cylinder. After reloading I use a bulge buster to make the reloads more uniform which makes them easier to load.

Still there (in Sierra VI) & no change in it's data from Sierra V.

They did add a 45ACP (+P) section but the revolver section is hotter.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Imagine, requiring a shell holder for each specific cartridge you load for. The nerve of them!

I de-prime my 45ARs just like any other cartridge & the Universal primer arm on my RCBS JR3 works on everything I reload. Don't know how the Rock Chucker is different in that regard?

.

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Waiting for the break of day

As Zeke stated that was an unfortunate period in the 45ACP revolver timeline, but very brief as it's been reported.

1917's had a chamber ledge & all of my modern 325/625s have one & mine shoot 45ACP (w/o moonclips) & 45AR reliably.

If your revolvers have chamber ledges but don't fire 45ACP reliably it's not because you're not using moonclips.

A lot of different factors can come into play, no matter which model:

- depth the chamber shoulder/ledge is cut to

- brass length

- firing pin length

- gross headspace

- cylinder endshake

- proper full length sizing of case

- proper crimp applied to bullet

- primer fully seated in primer pocket

- depth of the primer pocket

- &, primer hardness in conjunction with hammer/mainspring strength.

All the above, either singularly or in addition to other ones, can increase the likelihood your revolver will not fire them consistently without moonclips.

My oldest related revolver was made in 2008 but all (4) of mine shoot separate ammo, without moonclips, just fine. I hasten to add I'd never purposely load it that way if self-defense needs were anticipated for it. Range/casual use is fine.

I shoot mainly 45ARs but keep a loaded moonclip at the ready.

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Waiting for the break of day

You nailed what I was trying to explain in my post..........VERY good information.

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S&W Accumulator

Thanks for the correction, had skipped right over it! Glad they kept it.

I am aware of that Handloader article (Handloading the 45 Auto Rim - Handloader #254) & I find the side-bar in it a bit wanting.

That is a Sept-2008 article that refers to a problem a decade (no exact year) before (1998?) & then mentions a problem a few years (again no year mentioned) later (2001?)

He says he compared both revolvers (1998 & 2001 models?) and:

"Examination of both revolvers revealed that there were some “engineering changes” with noticeably greater space between
the firing pin and breech of the chamber/cylinder."

In the next paragraph he goes on to say that S&W is no longing cutting chamber shoulders/ledges in the 625s.

He never specifically says that the two revolvers did not have chamber shoulders, only that they had excessive gross headspace (which in it self can cause misfires).

That's two different issues! Why did he not provide more details?

I'm unaware of any follow-up discussion in Handloader since this side-bar article on the topic 14 years ago.

I don't dispute that for a period some models had issues but it's not an across the board issue since 1917 thru the last models & none of my "modern" revolvers has a problem shooting rimless without moonclips.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Why force yourself to choose?
Unlike women, cartridges don't get jealous. So, I like to "play the field", cartridge-wise. Tall ones, short ones, skinny ones, curved ones.... So, for .45 revolvers they're all good: 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, heck, I even like making brass for 455 Eley!

I like best of all the S&W .45 revolvers built in the 1950s specifically for Bullseye shooting. The throats are generally tight (.453" +/- .001") and the chamber shoulders are generally correct for headspacing on the case mouth of .45 "hardball" match ammo as formerly made for the USAMU and other service pistol teams.
Here's something quoted from a post I made in another thread a couple years ago:

"There's a very important point that has been overlooked.
-Make sure the chambers are clean! These were originally built as target guns. The chambers were cut so that 45 ACP ammo headspaced off of the casemouth. The moon clips are only for expediency of carrying ammo, loading and unloading. They were not intended for headspacing. This is for target revolvers only!
The downsides are that 1) the chambers must be clean or the case may not fully seat, and 2) your ammo must be match grade. If your brass (reloads) are too long the gun will jam and if too short you may get misfires and bad accuracy.
My suspicion is that as careless customers griped, S&W began to cut chambers a little deeper, and for similar reasons increased cylinder throat diameters. The price for this was accuracy.
My observation is that most 1970s 25-2s don't shoot nearly as well as 1950s era 1950 and 1955 .45 Target models. This is dramatically evident at the 50 yd line.
But, by the 1970s folks were rarely shooting bullseye with revolvers.

Also, besides checking moon clip thickness, try dressing them on a lapping stone or other flat surface. You'll be surprised to see how those "flat" moon clips aren't so true.

In my most humble opinion any S&W N-frame revolver will withstand much higher pressures than a 45acp (&+P) load will generate. They do it every day and have for decades.

Starline's AutoARim brass is indeed also plenty strong enough for any published (whatever THAT means?) 45acp (& +P) load, and then some!

Cheers!

Can someone tell me what version of the 625 doesn't have a headspace ledge in it's chambers? I don't recall ever seeing one. The only ones I've seen that wouldn't fire with factory spec ammo without a clip had excessive end shake. As a side note, some of the early Colt New Services did not have the headspace ledge. They were so desperate to get guns turned out for the war that they used cylinders chambered for 45 Colt that they had on hand. A 45 auto cartridge will disappear into the chamber without a clip. S&W had no such problem because they didn't have any guns chambered in the Colt caliber in their inventory. If you have a Colt New Service without the ledge, you have a rare gun.

I do not believe any of the S&W revolvers were produced without chambers cut in the charge holes. The problem, in some, is the depth of the chamber to the mouth of the cartridge was excessive.

Of course, I have not handled the all!

Kevin

edited to correct the statement to “ …don’t believe any revolvers were produced withOUT chambers…”

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In 1915 or 1916, Joseph Wesson realized that barring a miracle, the United States was going to become involved in WWI on a level much higher than providing supplies for the English. He also understood that the supply of US handguns was very low. Since they were building the 455 revolver for the British, he understood they could build a revolver to shoot the US 45 ACP cartridge by chambering it to hold the cartridge just like was done in the Colt 1911. The problem was ejecting it once it had been fired. The ACP has no rim for on which the extractor star can work. (S&W had already been through the situation of trying to introduce a new cartridge to the Army with the Schofield revolver and did not want to go that route.) In 1916, a patent was issued to Joseph Wesson and E S Pomeroy for a half moon clip and a full moon clip. The Army was given the choice of the two and wisely chose the 3 round option.

The moon clip was provided to merely enhance extraction of the rimless cartridge. It was not intended to ensure ignition of the cartridge.

Attached is an image of the patent sheet.



You can see this is far different from the earlier full moon clip used to load the top break revolvers and also different from what we are familiar with as a full moon clip.

Kevin

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