Bullet profile /ogive

My brother and I have a deal, where he supplies components and I reload all of our shells.

This thread is in reference to 9MM 115 gr. bullets and the bullet profile. We do not cast, so purchase bullets in bulk. Our last order was for 2,000 115 gr coated bullets from Bayou Bullets.

In 9MM, I have about 4 guns, most of them full size and brother has about the same. Lately he has purchased a couple of Taurus G2 and G3 and a S&W EZ. All of those guns have issues with the load length I have set up with the OAL of 1.090. Loading these with 3.5 gr 700X, which according to Hogdon online has max of 3.7 and starting load of 3.3-so square in the middle. Hogdon also calls for an OAL of 1.1

In the picture below, you can see a Wolf factory on left, my standard load with the OAL of 1.090 and the set back bullet at 1.070, which is where it has to go to chamber in the (3) guns listed above. They shoot fine in the full size guns as well.

He has shot all of the close chambered guns with the setback bullets with no signs of over pressure and they operate fine. All factory loads with the more narrow ogive and longer OAL (wolf miked at 1.15).

All factory bullets whether the long ogive or HP with a shorter OAL (missing top of bullet) load and fire with no issues in the problem guns.

I guess the point of this long post is to find out if anyone knows a coated or plated bullet with the long factory ogive and to give everyone a chance to tell me if they see any issues pushing the bullets back for those 3 guns listed. Some of the bullets got caught in the threading and pulled out of case when he manually cycled after gun would not fire as cartridge was not fully chambered.

I vaguely remember a term "lead" which I thought was the very beginning of rifling being a little smaller in the lands so bullets are not straight in to full height lands at the end of the chamber. I guess that's why all our full sized guns do not have issues. Are newer guns not using this?

Simplify it. Like many others, I've found if you seat bullets to just short of maximum magazine length and they'll easily drop into the chamber without any difficulty, this is the best OAL.

I loaded a 115 CLRN .356" Gallant at 1.08 to 1.12" OAL in my latest test.

For them to plunk in all my pistols, I had to make sure that my final sizing
of the case belling
was tight enough for the case to go all the way forward into my chambers.

I had one pistol that had a small Dia. chamber, that did not plunk a 1.12" OAL
unless the die sized the case and lead bullet enough, to go into "Battery".

Have you tried regular lubricated cast bullets?

There’s never a free lunch and with powder coated bullets. That powder coating has a thickness of .001-.002” minimum. Plus the more coats you apply to get a nice even coverage the thicker the coating gets.

The powder coater can cast undersize to anticipate the increased bullet diameter, coat them, size them and then do a final coat, but none of the sizing will do anything to decrease the build up on the ogive itself.

I’d try lubricated cast bullets and plated bullets for less expensive bullet options before I started seating bullets excessively deep in a 9mm Luger case.

A separate issue with cast bullets in tight chambers can be not just the belling of the case mouth not being brought back parallel to the case, but instead the case diameter just being too big.

If you have a cast bullet or cast and coated that is .356” or .357” and a tighter than average case wall, the loaded round may not drop into the chamber.

In cartridges like .32 ACP / 7.65 Browning where the European convention is a .308” bullet in a thick walled case and the US convention is a .311 bullet in a thinner walled case, hand loading a .311” bullet into a European case can result in a round that has excessive diameter at the case mouth. When that happens it won’t drop in to the chamber and even if it does the case has potentially no room to expand and release the bullet.

In situations like that with .32 ACP, or any other round that has the same issue, the options are:

a) use smaller diameter bullets to start with; or

b) use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, which uses a collet to resize the case and bullet near the case mouth; or

c) post size the completed round in a sizing die with the expander ball removed to partially size the round so the case mouth diameter is small enough to allow the round to drop in the chamber.

A or B are preferred and C works when there isn’t a Lee Factory Crimp Die available.

Cast lead bullets are typically larger than metal jacket .
Add a coating to the larger cast bullet makes it even larger and all this changes the nose profile ... You will need to seat the bullet a little deeper to make up for the extra length and nose thickness . Keep seating a dummy round(s) untill they will function 100%... they must Extract easily in all guns .

My answer to this problem was a Truncated Cone design ...not a RN .
The Truncated Cone was the original bullet profile and I have found it solved 99% of my seating / feeding problems ... you still have minor OAL adjustments to make based on a particular gun.
The problem is modern barrels have little or No Throat and a longish / fattish bullet sticks in the throat ... the truncated cone avoids a lot of that problem and still feeds well .
Determine OAL ...then work up powder charge .
Gary

Good ammo depends on quality bullets and cases that are very close in their I/D & O/D dimensions
for close specs and tolerances, needed for the "Plunk" tests, to work.

I do know that I get a lot less problems with bullets made from a company that are
"Double struck" before they go into a box, for shipping.

I know that some plated bullets are hit twice, I don't know about the coated brands.

I do not by any more.....

I don't buy any more 'smallball' 9mm bullets. If they aren't seated max. deep, they won't work.

rwsmith said:

I don't buy any more 'smallball' 9mm bullets. If they aren't seated max. deep, they won't work.

Click to expand...

90 gr ?

!.075" OAL ?

Give me a clue.

gwpercle said:

Cast lead bullets are typically larger than metal jacket .
Add a coating to the larger cast bullet makes it even larger and all this changes the nose profile ... You will need to seat the bullet a little deeper to make up for the extra length and nose thickness . Keep seating a dummy round(s) untill they will function 100%... they must Extract easily in all guns .

My answer to this problem was a Truncated Cone design ...not a RN .
The Truncated Cone was the original bullet profile and I have found it solved 99% of my seating / feeding problems ... you still have minor OAL adjustments to make based on a particular gun.
The problem is modern barrels have little or No Throat and a longish / fattish bullet sticks in the throat ... the truncated cone avoids a lot of that problem and still feeds well .
Determine OAL ...then work up powder charge .
Gary

Click to expand...

Another great thing about the TC is that the sharp edges of the meplat punches a nice hole - in paper, gelatin, or other intended targets. Way better than the smooth, slippery profile of a RN design.

duman444 said:

Some of the bullets got caught in the threading and pulled out of case when he manually cycled after gun would not fire as cartridge was not fully chambered.

I vaguely remember a term "lead" which I thought was the very beginning of rifling being a little smaller in the lands so bullets are not straight in to full height lands at the end of the chamber.

I guess that's why all our full sized guns do not have issues. Are newer guns not using this?

Click to expand...

I'm glad you're noticing the problem & not blindly moving on. This is can be a very problematic issue especially when multiple pistols are involved.

You either have to correct the pistols with little to no leade/freebore or reduce the COAL" & your powder charges to avoid cartridges "too long" getting loaded in the wrong pistol.

It's incorrect to assume full sized guns can't have the problem.

Not reducing the powder charge when you reduce the COAL" can cause excessive pressures that aren't readily noticeable.

This is a very complex subject so I've included a few recent threads that talked about the issue & maybe they'll be helpful.

.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/658102-generic-plunk-test-question.html?highlight=freebore

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reload...at-do-could-use-input.html?highlight=freebore

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/684994-cartridge-oal-varies.html?highlight=freebore

Sierra 147gr V-Crown

.

BLUEDOT37 said:

I'm glad you're noticing the problem & not blindly moving on. This is can be a very problematic issue especially when multiple pistols are involved.

You either have to correct the pistols with little to no leade/freebore or reduce the COAL" & your powder charges to avoid cartridges "too long" getting loaded in the wrong pistol.

It's incorrect to assume full sized guns can't have the problem.

Not reducing the powder charge when you reduce the COAL" can cause excessive pressures that aren't readily noticeable.

This is a very complex subject so I've included a few recent threads that talked about the issue & maybe they'll be helpful.

.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/658102-generic-plunk-test-question.html?highlight=freebore

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reload...at-do-could-use-input.html?highlight=freebore

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/684994-cartridge-oal-varies.html?highlight=freebore

Sierra 147gr V-Crown

.

Click to expand...

BLUEDOT37, The thread with the pictures you posted of freebore/leade was very informational. Checked 3 of my 4 9mm, yesterday and they all had freebore and leade. Brother and I have the same manufacturers on a couple of them, so no issues with those. I do not have the Taurus or Smith EZ to check, but I doubt they have either feature.

I use Oregon Trail cast bullets, 124 gr, RN, set to an OAL of 1.13" per their loading chart. The bullet does not jam in the rifling (threading), but using a combination seating/crimping die tends to shave the bullet. This forms a ring of lead at the end of the case, which interferes with seating and tends to jam in the chamber.

My solution is to back off the seating die, and use a separate crimping die (Dillon 550 with 4 die stations). No lead-shaving nor any head space issues.

I have almost a whole box of coated 9mm Bayou bullets that just won't play right especially in my CZ pistol which is notorious for tight chambers as well as in the MPX PCC. Some of these issues include failures to return to battery fully, jams, as well as case bullet separation upon ejecting the jammed round. It was certainly a mess and took me awhile to determine what all was going on. It was the coated bullets and the occasional belled case which is hard to see by eye!

Let me mention that the wife and I shoot a lot of 9mm for competitions, maybe 600 rounds a month. I roll size all of our brass so that is not an issue and it used to be once in awhile since all we use is range brass. I also tailored our loads to 1.130 OAL max which took care of the CZ chamber issue and works perfectly in all the other 9's. (115g)

The most important change we made was to go back to using copper clad bullets (not plated) and roll sizing! Not one issue in 1000's of rounds. Roll sizing is not required when you use and capture your own ammo provided it was shot in a fully supported barrel but as I mentioned we buy range pickup brass so it is a must for us.

Mike0251 said:

I also tailored our loads to 1.130 OAL max which took care of the CZ chamber issue and works perfectly in all the other 9's.

Click to expand...

When working up any new 9mm bullet, am also using a CZ compact barrel. If it works in that, it works in all the 9mm's owned.

The one's I bought...

Nevada Ed said:

90 gr ?

!.075" OAL ?

Give me a clue.

Click to expand...

....were 125 grain coated 'smallball', if I remember right anything over 1.06" was too long for about half of my guns.

I bought a BUNCH of them because they were pretty cheap. I figured I could load a pile every couple weeks and they would last a long time. They DID last a long time and I couldn't wait until I shot the last one.