Hello all-
Looks like I am going to buy a .38/.44 tomorrow. Four-inch barrel, date of manufacture appears (per SCSW) to be 1948/49/50.

Been searching for reloading data and not finding much. None of my (four) reloading manuals mention the .38/.44.

Did a search here, found absolutely zip/slant/doodley-squat. Nothing. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Doing some searching on Google, best I can find is that .38/.44 is "kinda/sorta" a "pre-.357 Mag" load. But I don't want to use .357 Mag data to replicate a .38/.44 load as the .38 cases are shorter...

So at this point my choices are:
--Load top-end .38 Spl or .38Spl+P loads. I already own .38 Spl and .357 Mag revolvers, so why bother?
--Find a .357 Mag load using the same bullet and powder and download by, I don't know, 15 or 20% as a starter? Not owning a chrono, this seems a bit dubious.
--Hope to find some actual .38/.44 loads. I have a decent selection of powders (11 different pistol powders) and bullets (125 and 158 gr).

Not looking for nuclear loads, but if I'm going to own an N-frame in .38/.44 I would like to shoot something stouter than a .38 Spl load, or again, why bother?

All input welcomed.
Best, Rich

Should I have posted this in the Reloading partition?

Shoot 38 Specials, of any variety, and enjoy it. But we do like pictures, how about showing us some.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Thank you, but I have multiple .38/.357 revolvers.
I did not buy the .38/.44 to shoot .38 Spl.

You could try John Taffin's solution:

"To duplicate the original . 38/44 factory load I use the Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over 11.0 grs. of #2400 for just over 1,100 fps. I also like the lighter RCBS #38-150KT (about 155 grs.)"

THE .38/44 HEAVY DUTY

WRITTEN BY JOHN TAFFIN (American Handgunner)

Contrary to popular belief, the sum of man's knowledge is not always available free for the asking using a google search!

The .38-44 cartridge was in its heyday about 90 years ago.
It is a fantastic cartridge.
If you want to learn more about it, you'll need to track down period-correct sources.
A good place to start is with Phil Sharpe. He did more than anybody with the .38-44 cartridge, and indeed his work led directly to the .357 Magnum.

Attached is an excerpt from his book. Look carefully and you'll see some of his laboratory pressure tested loads.

For further research, look up the origins of the Lyman-Ideal #358156 mold. It has two crimp grooves specifically for the purpose of being able to use the bullet in either a S&W .38-44 or a S&W .357 Magnum (N frame, to be specific).

PS: Use the search tool on this forum to learn more. Lots of folks have posted stuff here. I've submitted quite a bit, but won't be typing it again.

Attached Images

IMG_7152.jpg (71.8 KB, 223 views)

Brian Pearce, Handloader #243 ((Oct. 2006)

Attached Images

.38-44.jpg (76.1 KB, 303 views)

6 string looks to have posted part of a great old classic reloading book, Philip Sharpe’s guide to handloading ( my brother has a first printing from I think 1935 or so)
Nice thing about this old book, not only does it give data on cartridges and loads long obsolete, often with long out of production powders, it also very nicely gives a super wide variety of loads that still have utility ignored by mod manuals, such as very light loads with unusual projectiles ( 303 British light short range loads using 32 ACP bullets for example.)

Old books are your best most reliable resource but tread carefully- a lot of the powders mentioned in these books while under the same name have changed formulation over the decades

I've loaded lots of .38/44 for use in a 1935 HD and a 2nd generation Colt SAA. I settled on 11.0 grains of Alliant 2400 under a 158 grain bullet. I've mostly used cast bullets, but have had good results with jacketed as well. This load will definitely give you the ".38/44 experience" that you're looking for without too much stress on these old guns. The Brian Pearce article is excellent and should be required reading.

Some older Lyman manuals have .38/44 load data, but modern manuals don't because there's no SAAMI specifications for the cartridge. It's a long way from 20,000 PSI for .38 SPL +P to 35,000 PSI for .357 Magnum. Most people think the original .38/44 loads were in the 25,000-29,000 PSI range.

It's been so long since I did any handloading, anything I might tell you comes under the heading of a slightly modified SWAG! That said, between "22 hipower" here, and a couple of old S&W catalogs, I think you'll agree you have an answer.

SO-------------"22 hipower" says "just over 1,100 fps" (with the load he describes)---so far, so good!

From the S&W catalog of 1932, we have the ".38/44 S&W Special" with a muzzle velocity of 1,125 fps with a 158 grain bullet.

From the S&W catalog of 1941, we have the ".38 S&W Spec. Hi-Speed" with a muzzle velocity of 1,115 fps with a 158 grain lead bullet.

It would appear you're good to go---especially if you want to shoot through 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart--instead of only 8 1/2 7/8" pine boards spaced 7 1/2" apart with a puny .38 S&W Special at 847 fps---which is right at 100 fps faster than today's even punier .38 Special.

You reckon that's what's called progress?

Ralph Tremaine

6gr of Power Pistol under a 158 grain cast bullet is a good load that gives around 1075fps out of a 6.5” barrel. It’s listed in Alliant’s +p 38 data. Shoots very well out of my 1950s production Outdoorsman.

Look for the load that Skeeter Skelton wrote about using the Lyman 358156 bullet. Keith also wrote about the 38/44. Phil Sharpe did extensive work with the cartridge and that knowledge lead to the creation of the 357 Magnum, or as Sharpe called it, the 38 Special Magnum.

It sounds like you ran a very narrow search pattern!

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

The standard Lyman .38/44 propellant recommendation was 2400, around 12 grains. They also had a Unique load, around 6.3 grains. There are other propellants in the 2400 range, such as AA#9 and 296/H110, which would also work OK for .38/44. Back in the day, factory loads used 150 and 158 grain metal capped bullets, not FMJ. That allowed a little higher MV. There were also loads with metal piercing bullets available. If you want to duplicate the original loads, I would use the typical 158 grain LSWC bullet. If you have a chronograph, start at around 11 grains of 2400 and work up slowly until you reach 1100 ft/sec. Many of the HD revolvers had their chambers elongated by their owners to accept .357, and that worked. You really do not have to worry about using hot .38 Special loads in a HD. The boutique ammo makers such as Underwood and BB offer factory duplicate .38/44 loads, but they are expensive. It is generally believed that the original .38/44 factory loads had peak chamber pressures in the upper 20Kpsi range. But they were considered to be safe for use in any .38 Special revolver, not just the N-frames.

My personal opinion about the .38/44 is to not waste your time with it unless you really need to use that extra power. Just shoot regular .38 Special ammunition. I feel the same about the .357.

I have a 4 cavity Lyman 358429 as well as some 158 Gr RN from a Magma mold. I had been thinking of trying to replicate one of the original 38/44 loadings. After looking things over I have decided to run a large batch of 170 gr SWC from the Lyman mold out of #2 alloy. I have the latest Lyman Cast Bullet book in front of me now. There are some good options there and I have 4 of the listed powders in sufficient qty to do a good sized run of .38 Specials with the 170 gr SWC. My HD is an early gun with a 5” barrel. I will work up some trial rounds from suggested starting point, go to full charge and stop there. They should also work well in my 6” model 27-2.

Attached Images

4A24AEA6-BE5E-4441-9714-E6C5BD88D0CC.jpg (85.2 KB, 50 views)

To keep things simple, I'd stick with #2400 powder regardless of the 155-160 grain cast SWC bullet used. Whether #2400 was the powder choice for the original .38/44 factory loads or handloads, I don't know, but you can bet there has been more of it used than anything else in creating such loads over many decades. It's still about the most suitable powder.

I've had an Outdoorsman for many years. I only shoot standard .38 Special cast loads in it, but use the original .357 Magnum bullet, the Sharpe-inspired Hensley & Gibbs #51 160 grain plain base SWC. As expected, it remains among the best for .357 Magnum loads as well.

There may be some good online .38/44 data available, but the best sources are probably the older paper load manuals.

Which old powders have the same name, but changed formulation? That sounds like a dangerous and foolish thing for a powder company to do, and something that could be a serious liability. I would think that if there were a significant change (that would alter burning characteristics) that a completely new powder name would be in order.

From personal experience (I worked at Hercules before it became Alliant), if the canister powder's name is the same, so will be the ballistic performance. Canister propellants made for sale to hand loaders are blended to produce very similar ballistics performance forever even though the formulation may have changed slightly. i.e., barring any degradation due to age or poor storage, Bullseye or Unique made in 1920 will perform very similar to performance of the same powders made last week. That does not mean that reloading recipes remain constant forever.

The .38/44 is a loading (i.e., a 158gr lead bullet @ around 1,100 fps) for a specifically designed revolver (the N-frame), not a different "cartridge" than the 38 S&W Special. It used 38 S&W Special brass and it was not until the development of the 357 Magnum that a different cartridge existed using a longer case designed to prevent the higher pressure round from being fired in an inappropriate handgun.

Factory .38/44 ammunition is not available (to my knowledge), although certain companies do load various bullets in the same approximate range as the original.

Obviously the "hotter" +P load data can be compared with the (now?) "milder" 357 Magnum load data and one should be able to safely develop (working up or working down) loads that virtually duplicate the original .38/44's performance. Much easier to do if there's a 357 Magnum around to use as the test firearm...

So, it's really not a matter of "bothering" to shoot 38 Special loads but finding those 38 Special loads that make you happy.

Cheers!

P.S. If the Buffalo Bore 38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN using a 158gr Hard Cast Keith bullet @ 1,250 fps doesn't sit into (or exceed?) the original .38/44's ballistic envelope I would be mighty surprized!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

Handloader magazine , Oct 2016 has 38+P load data using various bullets and powders . Brian Pierce also included 38-44 load data , again using various bullets and powders . He included velocity and best accurate load for various combinations , " in his firearm " . Copies of the magazine are available from them . This is the best source I have ever found . good luck , regards Paul

I've always enjoyed BP's articles in Handloader. I had a paper subscription for several years, then went electronic until they switched to online access only a few years ago rather than downloading as PDF, as I want to keep copies on my computer rather than relying on internet access.

__________________
"I drank WHAT?" (Socrates)

Thanks to all who replied.
I loaded up some 158SWCs with 2400, starting at 11.0, and stepping up .5gr at a time. The 11.0 grain loads were fine, 11.5 fine, 12.0 was my most accurate load. Moving up to 12.5 the recoil was getting stout, moreso at 13.0. Also started to get extraction issues, and primer flattening...first time I've ever experienced that.

Others have gone to 13.5, but I think I will stick with 11.0-11.5-12.0 and test some more, probably going up at .2 intervals instead of .5.

Anyway, nice old revolver, and I look forward to shooting it some more. With 67-year old eyes, I'm not at my best with fixed sights, but I will continue and try to improve my technique.

Just adding a few things to my post #5.
This is all from Phil Sharpe’s book (1937).

First is his opening comment on the 357.
Next, excerpt of 357 data.
Then, excerpt of 38 Special data.
Notice, the use of the same powder and bullet. Compare the pressure, velocities, and powder charge weights. The only difference is OAL. This is a little confusing as Sharpe expresses it as seating depth (ie: deeper in the 357 case by a factor equivalent to the difference in case lengths.)

Sharpe worked hard and intelligently, and had his results laboratory pressure tested. That’s not necessarily a recommendation, though, especially the 16.0 gr. charge!

Orionengnr, I think you found some good loads!

Attached Images

	IMG_0430.jpg (58.0 KB, 47 views)
	IMG_0428.jpg (84.7 KB, 64 views)
	IMG_0429.jpg (61.7 KB, 51 views)

Thank you. I am sticking with 158-ish gr loads, although it has now been 18 weeks (GT Bullets' stated lead time) and according to their website, they are now working on orders placed late Jul, so I expect it will be another 3 months before I see them.

That will be more than 6 months lead time, which is a bunch more than their stated 18 weeks, so I honestly doubt that I will be a repeat customer, unless these things are utter magic...anyway, glad I bought the .38/44. and having some fun loading for it, and shooting it.

As a side issue, it had some reliability issues. After talking with S&W, they provided me with three references. I talked to all three and decided to send it to sent it to Clark Custom in Princeton, LA.

Couldn't be happier with their level of communication (George and Clay) and quality of work.

I will happily be a repeat customer of theirs is the need should arise with any of my S&W revolvers.

Looking at their website, they are apparently 1911 guys as well (as am I)...my favorite 1911 guy has retired, so I will give Clark Custom a try next time I need some 1911 work. Can't vouch for that yet, but if their 1911 guy is as good as Clay is with S&W revolvers, that will be a positive outcome.

...that they were produced until 1966! I had no idea!

I'm going to check my old books and see if there is any data for it. Usually the powders have been long defunct but almost everybody had a load of Unique or 2400. 2400 was introduced by Hercules in 1932. Of course Unique is older than dirt. Flaming dirt, that is.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Clark Custom Guns in Louisiana ... they work magic !

Them boy's gonna put a smile on your face make you Happy-Happy ...

I'm telling you for true ... mais yeah !

Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I've used a load from an older Lyman manual that has a separate section for "heavy frame" .38 Specials. Six grains of Unique under a 170-grain LSWC goes ~1070 fps from my 4" M28-2. That combination is what I carry when hiking.

__________________
Regards,

Chuck

From the Cast Boolit Forums...

Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice? - Page 2

Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...

The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.

The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.

Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity

148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380

150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps

155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210

No barrel length is listed...


Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)

148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380

150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310

158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240

165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025


I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.

S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps

I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.

As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...

Start low and work up using a chronograph...

Bob

Here's a link to a thread on this Forum that may be of interest to you:
38/44 Ammo Testing – Factory and Reload

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

I load the Lyman 358429 (173 grain) bullet in .38 Special cases with a healthy amount of 2400 powder. But I only shoot them in a Model 28.
The long bullet in a .357 case won’t chamber in the 28.

__________________
and what his trumpet saith

I've been using the Lyman 358156 with a gas check over 11.5grs of 2400
with a mag primer for years. Highly accurate and runs about 1150 fps average out of my 38/44 guns including my 357 revolvers.

My 38/44 problem was solved before I bought it......Some bored the cylinder out to 357........So.......That's all mine has ever eaten.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

Lots of very useful older threads on .38 Special ballistics in this forum. HS-6 and a SPM primer will duplicate 38/44 ballistics easily, with great accuracy. No huge fireball and cases fall out of the chambers. Pressure estimates for these loads are just under 22,600 cup (Pre-watered +P). Old 38/44 factory loads were at or under 24,000 cup. You cannot use washed-out current Hodgdon data for this. There's an excellent article by Brian Pearce in an older issue of Handloader on the 38/44.

October 2006, then updated October 2016.

I will have to scrounge around and see if I have one or the other.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

I have shot EK's load , his 173 gr swc ( Lyman 358429 ) loaded over 13.5 grs of 2400 powder in a 38 spl case . I did not have extraction problems nor overly flattened primers . I did use magnum primers .
I tried 12.0 grs of 2400 powder for more of a " shoot all day load " . I found both loads very accurate . My 6" Colt Python (1960's model ) loved them . Regards Paul

One of the guys over on the Cast Boolit forums pressure checked the Buffalo Bore and Underwood loading and came up 27.5k psi.

Is there any load data available for a 125 gr lead bullets. Thanks

re Phil Sharpe.....WOW!

__________________
S&W Accumulator

This is an old thread on this subject: smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/212111-38-44-ammo-testing-factory-reload.html

Every time the .38-44 comes up gives the same results, dozens of posts arguing about the cartridge. It is simple. Start with the original .357 Magnum using Phil Sharpes information in his extensive reloading book that dates to 1935.

The load was 15.3/2400/158 LSWC bullet that was a Winchester modification of a PBS bullet, NOT any Lyman or Keith style. This gave a published velocity of 1520 FPS +/- @ Ca. 35,000 PSI (CUP then). A little bit of interpolation of the .357 load gives a pressure of ca. 25-28,000 PSI for 11.0 to 12.0/2400. Sound familiar? If you have a chronograph simply decide your target velocity, 1115 to 1150 FPS based on old catalogs. With your choice of 158 LSWC or LRN bullet, and load between 11.0 and 12.0/2400 and adjust the charge to give the velocity you want from 1115-1150, and you have a good approximation of early factory .38-44 ammunition. At least as close as can be had!Just that simple! It is a shame that no metal-capped 158 LRN bullets are available to exactly duplicate the original ammunition! There is an excellent chance early .38-44 ammunition was loaded with 2400, at least from 1932-1935 on.

Other propellants can be used but we don't have documented starting information for them that can be interpolated like we do for .357 Magnum. If you don't believe velocity/pressure data can be estimated by interpolation from known loads you are mistaken!!!

If you are one of those who believes 2400 has changed since the 1930s, you are absolutely wrong! Refer to Dwalts comments above! I also called Hercules years ago and was told there has been no change! To quote the answer I got, "If it had been changed we would call it something different!"

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

The 1,100 fps 38-44 factory load was replaced after WW2 by downloaded versions; Remington “Hi-Speed” and Winchester/Western “Super X” and “Super Speed” loadings. The Remington version used a 158 gr rnl bullet at 1,090 FPS from a 6 inch test barrel These loads continued until the +P moniker was applied in 1974. I’ve seen actual chronograph data of the Remington “Hi-Speed” 158 gr rnl at 943 FPS from a 4 inch S&W Model 10 and 1,025 FPS from a 6 inch barrel; significantly, less that the original 38-44.

You would be better served to duplicate the velocity of these pre +P 38 Specials using 5.0 grs Unique and a 158 gr cast bullet. Your prized HD will thank you also.

Right, #2400 didn't change, handloaders just used hotter loads years ago and few such loads were pressure tested.

You’re right about 2400…never changed. Believe there’s a detailed post somewhere where they compared old vs new, Hercules and Alliant, and the results were ballistically the same.

My original factory 38-44 duplicate is 11.0 grs 2400 and Lyman 358311 RN dropping at 158 grs (Lyman #2 metal). I rarely reload these anymore becoming wiser in old age. I prefer to duplicate in my S&W 1953 Heavy Duty 5 inch the 1950s through early 1970s 38 Special “Hi-Speed” factory loads (pre +P) as chronographed; approximately, 950 fps from a 4 inch and 1,020 FPS in a 6 inch. Unique easily fits the bill.