38/44 reloading info?

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orionengnr

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Hello all-
Looks like I am going to buy a .38/.44 tomorrow. Four-inch barrel, date of manufacture appears (per SCSW) to be 1948/49/50.

Been searching for reloading data and not finding much. None of my (four) reloading manuals mention the .38/.44.

Did a search here, found absolutely zip/slant/doodley-squat. Nothing. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Doing some searching on Google, best I can find is that .38/.44 is "kinda/sorta" a "pre-.357 Mag" load. But I don't want to use .357 Mag data to replicate a .38/.44 load as the .38 cases are shorter...

So at this point my choices are:
--Load top-end .38 Spl or .38Spl+P loads. I already own .38 Spl and .357 Mag revolvers, so why bother?
--Find a .357 Mag load using the same bullet and powder and download by, I don't know, 15 or 20% as a starter? Not owning a chrono, this seems a bit dubious.
--Hope to find some actual .38/.44 loads. I have a decent selection of powders (11 different pistol powders) and bullets (125 and 158 gr).

Not looking for nuclear loads, but if I'm going to own an N-frame in .38/.44 I would like to shoot something stouter than a .38 Spl load, or again, why bother?

All input welcomed.
Best, Rich

Should I have posted this in the Reloading partition?
 
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orionengnr said:
Thank you, but I have multiple .38/.357 revolvers.
I did not buy the .38/.44 to shoot .38 Spl.
Click to expand...

You could try John Taffin's solution:

"To duplicate the original . 38/44 factory load I use the Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over 11.0 grs. of #2400 for just over 1,100 fps. I also like the lighter RCBS #38-150KT (about 155 grs.)"

THE .38/44 HEAVY DUTY

WRITTEN BY JOHN TAFFIN (American Handgunner)
 
Contrary to popular belief, the sum of man's knowledge is not always available free for the asking using a google search!

The .38-44 cartridge was in its heyday about 90 years ago.
It is a fantastic cartridge.
If you want to learn more about it, you'll need to track down period-correct sources.
A good place to start is with Phil Sharpe. He did more than anybody with the .38-44 cartridge, and indeed his work led directly to the .357 Magnum.

Attached is an excerpt from his book. Look carefully and you'll see some of his laboratory pressure tested loads.

For further research, look up the origins of the Lyman-Ideal #358156 mold. It has two crimp grooves specifically for the purpose of being able to use the bullet in either a S&W .38-44 or a S&W .357 Magnum (N frame, to be specific).

PS: Use the search tool on this forum to learn more. Lots of folks have posted stuff here. I've submitted quite a bit, but won't be typing it again. ;)
 

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6 string looks to have posted part of a great old classic reloading book, Philip Sharpe’s guide to handloading ( my brother has a first printing from I think 1935 or so)
Nice thing about this old book, not only does it give data on cartridges and loads long obsolete, often with long out of production powders, it also very nicely gives a super wide variety of loads that still have utility ignored by mod manuals, such as very light loads with unusual projectiles ( 303 British light short range loads using 32 ACP bullets for example.)

Old books are your best most reliable resource but tread carefully- a lot of the powders mentioned in these books while under the same name have changed formulation over the decades
 
I've loaded lots of .38/44 for use in a 1935 HD and a 2nd generation Colt SAA. I settled on 11.0 grains of Alliant 2400 under a 158 grain bullet. I've mostly used cast bullets, but have had good results with jacketed as well. This load will definitely give you the ".38/44 experience" that you're looking for without too much stress on these old guns. The Brian Pearce article is excellent and should be required reading.

Some older Lyman manuals have .38/44 load data, but modern manuals don't because there's no SAAMI specifications for the cartridge. It's a long way from 20,000 PSI for .38 SPL +P to 35,000 PSI for .357 Magnum. Most people think the original .38/44 loads were in the 25,000-29,000 PSI range.
 
22hipower said:
You could try John Taffin's solution:

"To duplicate the original . 38/44 factory load I use the Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over 11.0 grs. of #2400 for just over 1,100 fps. I also like the lighter RCBS #38-150KT (about 155 grs.)"

THE .38/44 HEAVY DUTY

WRITTEN BY JOHN TAFFIN (American Handgunner)
Click to expand...

It's been so long since I did any handloading, anything I might tell you comes under the heading of a slightly modified SWAG! That said, between "22 hipower" here, and a couple of old S&W catalogs, I think you'll agree you have an answer.

SO-------------"22 hipower" says "just over 1,100 fps" (with the load he describes)---so far, so good!

From the S&W catalog of 1932, we have the ".38/44 S&W Special" with a muzzle velocity of 1,125 fps with a 158 grain bullet.

From the S&W catalog of 1941, we have the ".38 S&W Spec. Hi-Speed" with a muzzle velocity of 1,115 fps with a 158 grain lead bullet.

It would appear you're good to go---especially if you want to shoot through 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart--instead of only 8 1/2 7/8" pine boards spaced 7 1/2" apart with a puny .38 S&W Special at 847 fps---which is right at 100 fps faster than today's even punier .38 Special.

You reckon that's what's called progress?

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Look for the load that Skeeter Skelton wrote about using the Lyman 358156 bullet. Keith also wrote about the 38/44. Phil Sharpe did extensive work with the cartridge and that knowledge lead to the creation of the 357 Magnum, or as Sharpe called it, the 38 Special Magnum.

It sounds like you ran a very narrow search pattern!

Kevin
 
The standard Lyman .38/44 propellant recommendation was 2400, around 12 grains. They also had a Unique load, around 6.3 grains. There are other propellants in the 2400 range, such as AA#9 and 296/H110, which would also work OK for .38/44. Back in the day, factory loads used 150 and 158 grain metal capped bullets, not FMJ. That allowed a little higher MV. There were also loads with metal piercing bullets available. If you want to duplicate the original loads, I would use the typical 158 grain LSWC bullet. If you have a chronograph, start at around 11 grains of 2400 and work up slowly until you reach 1100 ft/sec. Many of the HD revolvers had their chambers elongated by their owners to accept .357, and that worked. You really do not have to worry about using hot .38 Special loads in a HD. The boutique ammo makers such as Underwood and BB offer factory duplicate .38/44 loads, but they are expensive. It is generally believed that the original .38/44 factory loads had peak chamber pressures in the upper 20Kpsi range. But they were considered to be safe for use in any .38 Special revolver, not just the N-frames.

My personal opinion about the .38/44 is to not waste your time with it unless you really need to use that extra power. Just shoot regular .38 Special ammunition. I feel the same about the .357.
 
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Reloading to 38/44 spec

DWalt said:
The standard Lyman .38/44 propellant recommendation was 2400, around 12 grains. They also had a Unique load, around 6.3 grains. There are other propellants in the 2400 range, such as AA#9 and 296/H110, which would also work OK for .38/44. Back in the day, factory loads used 150 and 158 grain metal capped bullets, not FMJ. That allowed a little higher MV. There were also loads with metal piercing bullets available. If you want to duplicate the original loads, I would use the typical 158 grain LSWC bullet. If you have a chronograph, start at around 11 grains of 2400 and work up slowly until you reach 1100 ft/sec. Many of the HD revolvers had their chambers elongated by their owners to accept .357, and that worked. You really do not have to worry about using hot .38 Special loads in a HD. The boutique ammo makers such as Underwood and BB offer factory duplicate .38/44 loads, but they are expensive. It is generally believed that the original .38/44 factory loads had peak chamber pressures in the upper 20Kpsi range. But they were considered to be safe for use in any .38 Special revolver, not just the N-frames.

My personal opinion about the .38/44 is to not waste your time with it unless you really need to use that extra power. Just shoot regular .38 Special ammunition. I feel the same about the .357.
Click to expand...


I have a 4 cavity Lyman 358429 as well as some 158 Gr RN from a Magma mold. I had been thinking of trying to replicate one of the original 38/44 loadings. After looking things over I have decided to run a large batch of 170 gr SWC from the Lyman mold out of #2 alloy. I have the latest Lyman Cast Bullet book in front of me now. There are some good options there and I have 4 of the listed powders in sufficient qty to do a good sized run of .38 Specials with the 170 gr SWC. My HD is an early gun with a 5” barrel. I will work up some trial rounds from suggested starting point, go to full charge and stop there. They should also work well in my 6” model 27-2.
 

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To keep things simple, I'd stick with #2400 powder regardless of the 155-160 grain cast SWC bullet used. Whether #2400 was the powder choice for the original .38/44 factory loads or handloads, I don't know, but you can bet there has been more of it used than anything else in creating such loads over many decades. It's still about the most suitable powder.

I've had an Outdoorsman for many years. I only shoot standard .38 Special cast loads in it, but use the original .357 Magnum bullet, the Sharpe-inspired Hensley & Gibbs #51 160 grain plain base SWC. As expected, it remains among the best for .357 Magnum loads as well.

There may be some good online .38/44 data available, but the best sources are probably the older paper load manuals.
 
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MajorD said:
6 string looks to have posted part of a great old classic reloading book, Philip Sharpe’s guide to handloading ( my brother has a first printing from I think 1935 or so)
Nice thing about this old book, not only does it give data on cartridges and loads long obsolete, often with long out of production powders, it also very nicely gives a super wide variety of loads that still have utility ignored by mod manuals, such as very light loads with unusual projectiles ( 303 British light short range loads using 32 ACP bullets for example.)

Old books are your best most reliable resource but tread carefully- a lot of the powders mentioned in these books while under the same name have changed formulation over the decades
Click to expand...

Which old powders have the same name, but changed formulation? That sounds like a dangerous and foolish thing for a powder company to do, and something that could be a serious liability. I would think that if there were a significant change (that would alter burning characteristics) that a completely new powder name would be in order.
 
From personal experience (I worked at Hercules before it became Alliant), if the canister powder's name is the same, so will be the ballistic performance. Canister propellants made for sale to hand loaders are blended to produce very similar ballistics performance forever even though the formulation may have changed slightly. i.e., barring any degradation due to age or poor storage, Bullseye or Unique made in 1920 will perform very similar to performance of the same powders made last week. That does not mean that reloading recipes remain constant forever.
 
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The .38/44 is a loading (i.e., a 158gr lead bullet @ around 1,100 fps) for a specifically designed revolver (the N-frame), not a different "cartridge" than the 38 S&W Special. It used 38 S&W Special brass and it was not until the development of the 357 Magnum that a different cartridge existed using a longer case designed to prevent the higher pressure round from being fired in an inappropriate handgun.

Factory .38/44 ammunition is not available (to my knowledge), although certain companies do load various bullets in the same approximate range as the original.

Obviously the "hotter" +P load data can be compared with the (now?) "milder" 357 Magnum load data and one should be able to safely develop (working up or working down) loads that virtually duplicate the original .38/44's performance. Much easier to do if there's a 357 Magnum around to use as the test firearm...

So, it's really not a matter of "bothering" to shoot 38 Special loads but finding those 38 Special loads that make you happy.

Cheers!

P.S. If the Buffalo Bore 38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN using a 158gr Hard Cast Keith bullet @ 1,250 fps doesn't sit into (or exceed?) the original .38/44's ballistic envelope I would be mighty surprized!
 
Handloader magazine , Oct 2016 has 38+P load data using various bullets and powders . Brian Pierce also included 38-44 load data , again using various bullets and powders . He included velocity and best accurate load for various combinations , " in his firearm " . Copies of the magazine are available from them . This is the best source I have ever found . good luck , regards Paul
 
cowboy4evr said:
Handloader magazine , Oct 2016 has 38+P load data using various bullets and powders . Brian Pierce also included 38-44 load data , again using various bullets and powders . He included velocity and best accurate load for various combinations , " in his firearm " . Copies of the magazine are available from them . This is the best source I have ever found . good luck , regards Paul
Click to expand...
I've always enjoyed BP's articles in Handloader. I had a paper subscription for several years, then went electronic until they switched to online access only a few years ago rather than downloading as PDF, as I want to keep copies on my computer rather than relying on internet access.
 
Thanks to all who replied.
I loaded up some 158SWCs with 2400, starting at 11.0, and stepping up .5gr at a time. The 11.0 grain loads were fine, 11.5 fine, 12.0 was my most accurate load. Moving up to 12.5 the recoil was getting stout, moreso at 13.0. Also started to get extraction issues, and primer flattening...first time I've ever experienced that.

Others have gone to 13.5, but I think I will stick with 11.0-11.5-12.0 and test some more, probably going up at .2 intervals instead of .5.

Anyway, nice old revolver, and I look forward to shooting it some more. With 67-year old eyes, I'm not at my best with fixed sights, but I will continue and try to improve my technique.
 
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