38/44 reloading info?

[6string]

Just adding a few things to my post #5.
This is all from Phil Sharpe’s book (1937).

First is his opening comment on the 357.
Next, excerpt of 357 data.
Then, excerpt of 38 Special data.
Notice, the use of the same powder and bullet. Compare the pressure, velocities, and powder charge weights. The only difference is OAL. This is a little confusing as Sharpe expresses it as seating depth (ie: deeper in the 357 case by a factor equivalent to the difference in case lengths.)

Sharpe worked hard and intelligently, and had his results laboratory pressure tested. That’s not necessarily a recommendation, though, especially the 16.0 gr. charge!

Orionengnr, I think you found some good loads!

 

[orionengnr]

Thank you. I am sticking with 158-ish gr loads, although it has now been 18 weeks (GT Bullets' stated lead time) and according to their website, they are now working on orders placed late Jul, so I expect it will be another 3 months before I see them.

That will be more than 6 months lead time, which is a bunch more than their stated 18 weeks, so I honestly doubt that I will be a repeat customer, unless these things are utter magic...anyway, glad I bought the .38/44. and having some fun loading for it, and shooting it.

As a side issue, it had some reliability issues. After talking with S&W, they provided me with three references. I talked to all three and decided to send it to sent it to Clark Custom in Princeton, LA.

Couldn't be happier with their level of communication (George and Clay) and quality of work.

I will happily be a repeat customer of theirs is the need should arise with any of my S&W revolvers.

Looking at their website, they are apparently 1911 guys as well (as am I)...my favorite 1911 guy has retired, so I will give Clark Custom a try next time I need some 1911 work. Can't vouch for that yet, but if their 1911 guy is as good as Clay is with S&W revolvers, that will be a positive outcome.

 

[rwsmith]

Wikipedia sez....

...that they were produced until 1966! I had no idea!

I'm going to check my old books and see if there is any data for it. Usually the powders have been long defunct but almost everybody had a load of Unique or 2400. 2400 was introduced by Hercules in 1932. Of course Unique is older than dirt. Flaming dirt, that is.

 

[gwpercle]

Clark Custom Guns in Louisiana ... they work magic !

Them boy's gonna put a smile on your face make you Happy-Happy ...

I'm telling you for true ... mais yeah !

Gary

 

[Chuck Edwards]

I've used a load from an older Lyman manual that has a separate section for "heavy frame" .38 Specials. Six grains of Unique under a 170-grain LSWC goes ~1070 fps from my 4" M28-2. That combination is what I carry when hiking.

 

[SuperMan]

From the Cast Boolit Forums...

Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice? - Page 2

 

[SuperMan]

Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...

The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.

The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.

Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity

148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380

150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps

155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210

No barrel length is listed...


Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)

148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380

150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310

158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240

165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025


I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.

S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps

I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.

As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...

Start low and work up using a chronograph...

Bob

 

[Jack Flash]

Here's a link to a thread on this Forum that may be of interest to you:
38/44 Ammo Testing – Factory and Reload

 

[nicky4968]

I load the Lyman 358429 (173 grain) bullet in .38 Special cases with a healthy amount of 2400 powder. But I only shoot them in a Model 28.
The long bullet in a .357 case won’t chamber in the 28.

 

[moosedog]

I've been using the Lyman 358156 with a gas check over 11.5grs of 2400
with a mag primer for years. Highly accurate and runs about 1150 fps average out of my 38/44 guns including my 357 revolvers.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

My 38/44 problem was solved before I bought it......Some bored the cylinder out to 357........So.......That's all mine has ever eaten.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Lots of very useful older threads on .38 Special ballistics in this forum. HS-6 and a SPM primer will duplicate 38/44 ballistics easily, with great accuracy. No huge fireball and cases fall out of the chambers. Pressure estimates for these loads are just under 22,600 cup (Pre-watered +P). Old 38/44 factory loads were at or under 24,000 cup. You cannot use washed-out current Hodgdon data for this. There's an excellent article by Brian Pearce in an older issue of Handloader on the 38/44.

 

[Jack Flash]

... There's an excellent article by Brian Pearce in an older issue of Handloader on the 38/44.

October 2006, then updated October 2016.

I will have to scrounge around and see if I have one or the other.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have shot EK's load , his 173 gr swc ( Lyman 358429 ) loaded over 13.5 grs of 2400 powder in a 38 spl case . I did not have extraction problems nor overly flattened primers . I did use magnum primers .
I tried 12.0 grs of 2400 powder for more of a " shoot all day load " . I found both loads very accurate . My 6" Colt Python (1960's model ) loved them . Regards Paul

 

[SuperMan]

One of the guys over on the Cast Boolit forums pressure checked the Buffalo Bore and Underwood loading and came up 27.5k psi.

 

[johnnyjr]

Is there any load data available for a 125 gr lead bullets. Thanks

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Contrary to popular belief, the sum of man's knowledge is not always available free for the asking using a google search!

The .38-44 cartridge was in its heyday about 90 years ago.
It is a fantastic cartridge.
If you want to learn more about it, you'll need to track down period-correct sources.
A good place to start is with Phil Sharpe. He did more than anybody with the .38-44 cartridge, and indeed his work led directly to the .357 Magnum.

Attached is an excerpt from his book. Look carefully and you'll see some of his laboratory pressure tested loads.

For further research, look up the origins of the Lyman-Ideal #358156 mold. It has two crimp grooves specifically for the purpose of being able to use the bullet in either a S&W .38-44 or a S&W .357 Magnum (N frame, to be specific).

PS: Use the search tool on this forum to learn more. Lots of folks have posted stuff here. I've submitted quite a bit, but won't be typing it again.

re Phil Sharpe.....WOW!

 

[Alk8944]

This is an old thread on this subject: smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/212111-38-44-ammo-testing-factory-reload.html

Every time the .38-44 comes up gives the same results, dozens of posts arguing about the cartridge. It is simple. Start with the original .357 Magnum using Phil Sharpes information in his extensive reloading book that dates to 1935.

The load was 15.3/2400/158 LSWC bullet that was a Winchester modification of a PBS bullet, NOT any Lyman or Keith style. This gave a published velocity of 1520 FPS +/- @ Ca. 35,000 PSI (CUP then). A little bit of interpolation of the .357 load gives a pressure of ca. 25-28,000 PSI for 11.0 to 12.0/2400. Sound familiar? If you have a chronograph simply decide your target velocity, 1115 to 1150 FPS based on old catalogs. With your choice of 158 LSWC or LRN bullet, and load between 11.0 and 12.0/2400 and adjust the charge to give the velocity you want from 1115-1150, and you have a good approximation of early factory .38-44 ammunition. At least as close as can be had!Just that simple! It is a shame that no metal-capped 158 LRN bullets are available to exactly duplicate the original ammunition! There is an excellent chance early .38-44 ammunition was loaded with 2400, at least from 1932-1935 on.

Other propellants can be used but we don't have documented starting information for them that can be interpolated like we do for .357 Magnum. If you don't believe velocity/pressure data can be estimated by interpolation from known loads you are mistaken!!!

If you are one of those who believes 2400 has changed since the 1930s, you are absolutely wrong! Refer to Dwalts comments above! I also called Hercules years ago and was told there has been no change! To quote the answer I got, "If it had been changed we would call it something different!"

 

[38SPL HV]

The 1,100 fps 38-44 factory load was replaced after WW2 by downloaded versions; Remington “Hi-Speed” and Winchester/Western “Super X” and “Super Speed” loadings. The Remington version used a 158 gr rnl bullet at 1,090 FPS from a 6 inch test barrel These loads continued until the +P moniker was applied in 1974. I’ve seen actual chronograph data of the Remington “Hi-Speed” 158 gr rnl at 943 FPS from a 4 inch S&W Model 10 and 1,025 FPS from a 6 inch barrel; significantly, less that the original 38-44.

You would be better served to duplicate the velocity of these pre +P 38 Specials using 5.0 grs Unique and a 158 gr cast bullet. Your prized HD will thank you also.

 

[rockquarry]

This is an old thread on this subject: smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/212111-38-44-ammo-testing-factory-reload.html

Every time the .38-44 comes up gives the same results, dozens of posts arguing about the cartridge. It is simple. Start with the original .357 Magnum using Phil Sharpes information in his extensive reloading book that dates to 1935.

The load was 15.3/2400/158 LSWC bullet that was a Winchester modification of a PBS bullet, NOT any Lyman or Keith style. This gave a published velocity of 1520 FPS +/- @ Ca. 35,000 PSI (CUP then). A little bit of interpolation of the .357 load gives a pressure of ca. 25-28,000 PSI for 11.0 to 12.0/2400. Sound familiar? If you have a chronograph simply decide your target velocity, 1115 to 1150 FPS based on old catalogs. With your choice of 158 LSWC or LRN bullet, and load between 11.0 and 12.0/2400 and adjust the charge to give the velocity you want from 1115-1150, and you have a good approximation of early factory .38-44 ammunition. At least as close as can be had!Just that simple! It is a shame that no metal-capped 158 LRN bullets are available to exactly duplicate the original ammunition! There is an excellent chance early .38-44 ammunition was loaded with 2400, at least from 1932-1935 on.

Other propellants can be used but we don't have documented starting information for them that can be interpolated like we do for .357 Magnum. If you don't believe velocity/pressure data can be estimated by interpolation from known loads you are mistaken!!!

If you are one of those who believes 2400 has changed since the 1930s, you are absolutely wrong! Refer to Dwalts comments above! I also called Hercules years ago and was told there has been no change! To quote the answer I got, "If it had been changed we would call it something different!"

Right, #2400 didn't change, handloaders just used hotter loads years ago and few such loads were pressure tested.