Every few years, I buy a bunch of cast bullets . I generally order 10,000 or more in various calibers. I find that by ordering a large quantity I get a discount. That keeps me shooting and reloading for a while. It is now time to order more. I am finding that some suppliers are now offering bullets with a polymer or hi-tek coating. I have never used this and am curious if I should try it. I am reluctant to commit to a large quantity of something I haven't tried. I have developed loads for each of my pistol calibers that seem to work in a variety of guns. So I have no wish to experiment. I also shoot outdoors, so smoke is not an issue. Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

Try small quantities first. I ordered some Hi Tech coated 9mm bullets and the shape is different from the plated bullets I've been using, have to seat deeper. They are 9mm. I haven't tried any in 45 or 38. They also have the bullet with the lube groove in it that works fine. I wouldn't expect them to be as accurate as cast in the 45 or 38 but for general use OK.

You will find quite a few coated bullet fans.
They shoot like and use the same load data as lubed bullets.
They are clean. Your dies stay clean. Unless there is some problem the barrel bore does not get leaded.
You do have to make sure the cases get enough flare so the coating does not get skived off when loading them. Easy enough to do though.

Get coated! Regular lube is so yesterdayCoated is much cleaner, no smoke, no lead exposure etc etc.


But they must be from someone that knows what they are doing. Missouri Bullets, Acme Bullets There are others.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

The coating will add some extra size to a bullets other area's , ogive area , shoulder diameter , etc... where the bullet doesn't get sized down . Some adjustments might be required to get rounds to chamber , especially for auto-loaders ... other than that they should do just fine .
I still cast and lube mine the old school way because I'm so Yesterday it hurts and set in my Yesterday ways . My Lube/sizer was paid for in 1967 and I have a big stash of Lithi-Bee bullet Lube .
You might want to try a small lot before you go all in and then discover you don't care for coated .
Another thing I enjoy is .... Gun Smoke !
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I bought a small box of 158 gr SWC as a trial for a .38 spl. My immediate goal was also to evaluate them to see if I wanted to buy a toaster oven and a supply of powder coating. As usual, I moved too quickly, and bought some 9mm and .41 and .45.

They smell nice. I don't have to clean my dies. Cleaner loading process. Butttt....

In a direct comparison with several semis and revolvers, my home cast / liquid alox tumble lubed boolits outperformed all of the Hi-tek bullets in accuracy and consistency. In each case, the weight and shapes were quite similar.

I will use them up, but future casting will be done with tumble lube. Cleaning the die isn't really that hard.

I've been using Missouri Hi-Tek coated bullets in 38/357, 41 mag and 44 mags exclusively. Good accuracy and no leading. The right propellent, crimp and primers with testing off the bench will answer your question. I'm able to buy a box of #500 at one time. I think I'd need a forklift for #10,000.

I have loaded and fired literally thousands of coated bullets in 9mm, 357/38, 40S&W, 45acp, and 30-30. The only issue I have ever encountered is that the bullets feel a little slippery when you pick them up and sometimes little bullets like 9mm will slip out of my fingers. You can drive them faster, the don't smoke nearly as much and they don't lead the bore. When fired they do smell to me like ozone from an electrical short. Below is a pic I took of an S&S coated bullet that I pounded flat with a hammer. Zero loss of coating.

Attached Images

smashed bullet.jpg (140.3 KB, 114 views)

There always seems to be a ... Butttt

My Daddy always said ... "If it ain't broke don't fix it !"

So if you have a method that works for you ... don't be so all fired quick to change to something else .

I realize the OP is buying coated bullets but the fact is lube/sizing is faster and easier for me ... one stroke of my Lyman 450 produces a bullet that is sized , lubed and gas checked crimped on (if needed) ready to load and shoot . Powder coating is a much more envolved and longer process .
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Every one always about the elephant in the room.....LEADING. Of course coated bullets are a potential answer, but if you watch your p's and q's leading is never an issue.

Proper lube
Proper size
Proper lead hardness
Proper velocity

Eons ago when I started reloading .38 spl with (soft) store bought Speer wadcutters I could not keep the barrel clean. Cast my own since 1975 and never had a problem since.

I’ve used many thousands of coated bullets and the only way I’d go back to conventional lube is if I couldn’t get coated or plated. Costed are so much cleaner. I use Accurate powders now, #2 and N100NF, that are much cleaner than Hogdon powders like 231 and HS-6. After shooting a couple hundred rounds now my gun ia breeze to clean. I find in 38 and 45 Accurate #2 and coated bullets are probably 80% cleaner than lubed with 231.

I’ve used several brands and never seen any difference in accuracy vs lubed lead. I generally use Summers, a small caster in Mississippi, Acme and Missouri and found no difference other than price.

One other nice thing about coated bullets. You never get a shipment of bullets where half the lube is laying in chunks in the bottom of the shipping box.

I've yet to see a need for coated, painted, or plated bullets for any handgun use; conventionally lubed cast bullets have worked fine. My biggest concern is accuracy. Cast bullets won't lead bores if they fit and are of the proper alloy for the load. As for smudged fingertips - they are easy to clean.

But trying coated, painted, or plated bullets is certainly worth the effort if you are so inclined. I'd compare the accuracy at 25 yards from a good benchrest and go with what shoots best. Good luck-

its been said already if it ain't broke don't fix it. if you don't want to experiment, keep doing what you do.

Your couple of years are probably closer to a couple of decades if you're just coming up for air to see them.
Coatings are quite solidly proven at this point.
They're significant less picky than their traditional counterparts.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

The bottom line, to me, is accuracy.
If I was too lazy to clean my guns, maybe it would be different.

It's always interesting to see the accolades for coated bullets, usually stating "no difference in accuracy".
NOBODY, making these claims offers any verifiable evidence, or even basic info like shooting distance, to back up their claims.

If you're shooting 25 yds or less, who cares? Any decent load will shoot within reason. Things get interesting at the 50 yd line and beyond.
What is the test procedure?
At the least, it should include a Ransom Rest. If you're loading for a semiauto, it's better yet if you use a barrel fixture, like a Cominolli Device, to test barrel alone. Then, repeat the test in a Ransom Rest to verify the build quality of the gun itself.
The goal? 5 to 10 shot groups @50 yds that hold the X-ring on the NRA precision Bullseye target, which is approx. 1.6".
I’ve used this procedure myself about 20 yrs ago, when I had access to this equipment, owned by the SC Nat’l Guard pistol team.
As GypsmJim points out, there are fundamentals to getting the most out of traditional lubed cast bullets. Follow them! More work? Yes, but accuracy is always in the details.

Objective tests show that in A/B comparisons, with human error removed, coated bullets shoot about 75% larger groups at the 50 yard line than properly loaded lubed cast bullets.
You can't just paint on a layer of indeterminate thickness and hardness onto a cast bullet and expect magic, at least where accuracy is concerned.
This has been shown, over and over again, mostly by the gunsmiths building Bullseye-level competition pistols, where customers pay the extra thousands of dollars and expect test target data to back up the accuracy specifications that the gunsmiths claim to deliver.
That being said, a lot of guys will choose a jacketed bullet load for the slow-fire 50 yd line, then switch to lead (coated or traditional lubed) for the short line (25 yds) rapid & timed stages.

If you're just shooting for fun at "defense" distances, maybe none of this matters.

Just talking here on the forum is unlikely to settle anything further. The camps are divided and people have made up their minds.
Or, maybe not?

1) From John Giles. The accuracy specs used a .38 cast wadcutter from a Hensley & Gibbs mold.
2 & 3): Actual machine rest results, by gunsmith John Giles. These are at 50 yds.
The ammo was loaded for Giles by Gene Wilson, on a Star Universal press, using bullets from H&G molds.
Bullet lube is the old NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax formula.



Anybody have 50 yd targets for their coated bullets?
Maybe somebody has made some progress??

Attached Images

	IMG_0336.jpg (91.8 KB, 30 views)
	Giles-Test.jpg (85.0 KB, 23 views)
	Giles-test:45.jpg (72.4 KB, 31 views)

Guess I'm "yesterday" cuz I still convention lube bullets for 14 different calibers that I cast and pour my own lead shot in 7 1/2--8--9 diameters....Only been at it since 1972.......May have try those coated bullet someday.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

??????????

Been using powder coated and Hi-Tek coated bullets for some time. They seem to be no different than lubed bullets of the same mold but my fingers stay cleaner. No drawbacks that I can see.

__________________
S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Looks like you guys need to do more work with your load development. Got all the fancy tools/toys & high $$$$ custom guns. And that's all you come up with???

Bought a $500 beater 629 at a gunshow years ago to use as a truck gun. When it isn't bouncing around in the toolbox in the back of the truck it gets a steady diet of blammo ammo.

1 of it's favorite loads:
a cast (8/9bhn) 250gr fn hp with 11.5grs of unique (.2gr under max/1250fps) 6-shot group @ 50yds


No fancy rest, nothing more than a rolled up towel on a card board box.

Same beater 629 playing around at a measly 25yds. Did head-to-head testing with 7 different cast bullets and 5 different powders.

Traditionally cast/lubed bullets vs cast coated bullets. I cast all the bullets and sized them all in the same 450 sizer. The powders were ladder tested up to +/- 25,000psi loads.

Same beater revolver same box/towel same targets/reloading equipment/etc.

Was looking for loads that would do 1 1/2" or less @ 25yds 6-shot groups. Hense blammo ammo, anyway when the smoke cleared I had 13 loads/targets with the coated bullets that held 1 1/2" or less and 3 loads with the traditionally cast/lubed bullets.

13 vs 3 is huge


Playing around with a 686 @ 50yds using mixed range brass and 2 loads that are 1100fps+/357mag loads.


No there no 1 1/2" groups but when I switch to new or 1x starline bass the groups shrink to the 1 1/2" mark.

A little head to head testing @ 50yds using cast bullets in a 308w.

10-shot group using traditional cast/lubed bullets with a gas check installed.

Same cast bullet this time coated with pc and no gas check installed.


Yup the test targets were shot on different days

Playing around with a $700 1911 chambered in 9mm. Using a super lite load and a #10 recoil spring with a cast bullet designed in 1900 to be used in a 38long colt.

10-shot group @ 50yds my high $$$$ box/towel rest.


Not sure if the fliers were from the 1911 being under sprung or the bullets bases being swaged down/bullet too long for the 9mm cases. That cast hb fn next to a 125gr fn hp that I normally use/shoot in that 1911/9mm.


Anyway, apparently you need a box, towel & a cheap firearm to use coated bullets @ 50yds

Actually I'm getting older and just don't shoot much past 25yds with pistols/revolvers anymore.

Myself, I could care less what someone uses in their pistols/revolvers/rifles.

What surprising to me is how little the people that have been casting bullets for decades actually know about the "mechanics" of a traditionally cast/lubed bullet. Let alone how those mechanics apply to a coated bullet.

The only thing I can add is that storage of coated in any temperatures should not effect the coating. I can't say the same about lubes.

I cast pistol bullets and sort and coat them. It takes about an hour to do 150 9mm. I then run the coated bullets through a drop through sizing die on an arbor press and they are ready to load. For me it is quicker than lube sizing when I consider changing dies and filling with lube.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

I have never used coated bullets, so I have nothing specific to suggest. However to inject a little levity . . . .

My cousin uses coated bullets in his 45-70. Red color. Big red bullets in shiny brass 45-70 cases look a lot like a lady's lipstick. He's not amused when asked why he brings lipstick to a gun club.

For the kiss of death of course

__________________
it just needs more voltage

You can't like a post more than once so I figured I'd quote it and say thanks for the detailed analysis. I've never done a comparison this detailed at 50 yards but my informal shooting at 25 yards agrees with your conclusion.

Lets go shoot 100 rounds out of the same revolvers, you shoot your conventional lubed and I will shoot Hi Tec coated


I still have boxes of conventional lubed bullets and can't wait to shoot them to get rid of them. I even went through the work of stripping 500 45 acp 230 gr bullets of lube, cleaned then then powder coated them. Tired of cleaning a $1500 1911. PC paint is not even as good as the Hi Tec polymer.

Then compare which gun is easier to clean and which produces more smoke

Plus for indoor range shooters most will not allow regular lead bullets

Attached Images

IMG_0538 (Large).jpg (131.4 KB, 20 views)

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Some of my clear coated boolits. To the untrained eye, just straight lead.

Attached Images

	20220924_213631.jpg (127.2 KB, 34 views)
	20230511_233543.jpg (144.8 KB, 37 views)
	20221012_172436.jpg (60.8 KB, 34 views)
	20220927_090259.jpg (109.6 KB, 40 views)

Why 100 rounds????

Heck 200 rounds thru a 686, put it back in the case (no cleaning required) and brought it back to the range 3/4 more times (200 rounds per visit) before I even thought about cleaning anything.


A lot of people reload/shoot 9mm's, call me old school but I shoot a1911/9mm.


My favorite cast/coated bullet for the 9mm's. It's a 125gr fn hp that holds it's own. My +/- 1100fps load for that 1911/bullet combo. Granted it's only a 10-shot group @ 50 ft. But I don't have any fancy ransom rest to test with either.

The horizontal stringing is from old eyes/iron sights.

Anyway 600+ rounds with that 1911/9mm 1100fps combo




1 tight wet patch with hoppe's #9 on a jag. Then 1 dry patch to finish the bbl off.


I'm sure everyone that shoots traditional cast lubed bullets in their 9mm can do/claim the same thing (600+ rounds down the tube without cleaning anything). And ya same goes for the 1911/45acp's.

I find the tension between some lubed vs coated shooters somewhat silly.
I've only loaded coated. The clean factor sent me in that direction, and I don't have the desire to exploit any potential 1/2" difference either way at 50 yards.
The guys that have developed good, lubed rounds and don't want to go through development again have a valid reason to stay the course.

Totally agree, everyone should use what's best for "their" shooting needs/standards.

Myself, I decided to get into coating bullets back in 2014. Already been using/making traditionally cast/lubed bullets for 3+ decades at that point in time. Cast bullets in a 308w was my interest & specifically coated bullets.

With a 1 in 14 twist 308w bbl most cast bullets held their own to the 2700fps+ threshold.
More often than not the traditionally cast/lubed bullets performed best in the 2400fpr to 2600fps range. The testing was over a 5 year period using 10+ different cast bullets and the same 14bhn alloy.

At the 50/60 round count accuracy started to go south with the traditionally cast/lubed bullets. Depended on the pressure of the load. Leading would start at the 25/35 round count.


The traditionally lubed bullets were lubed with lbt blue and a coat of tumble lube, ya double lubed. It took +/- 10 rounds to get a lube star on the muzzle of the 308w bbl.


At 2700fps+ the coated bullets started leaving burnt streaks in the bbl. They came out easy enough with bore tech eliminator.


The most coated bullet rounds I shot in 1 day was 300+ with all of them in the +/- 2700fps range while still maintaining accuracy. I never would have been able to do that with the traditionally cast/lubed bullets.

What the leade of that 308w bbl looked like when new.


What it looked like after 2000+ rounds of hot cast bullet loads.


Anyway I had all the traditionally cast/lubed bullets loads worked up/tested that I'd ever need with several different cast bullets for every firearm I owned. Just for the heck of it I decided to try coating some pistol/revolver bullets. It was a real eye opener.

Don't know why I find it surprising that the same posts keep coming up about accuracy/seating/etc.

Not as accurate:
I must be doing something wrong, not only do I find coated bullets just as accurate. I find its easier to find accurate loads with them.

Got to love the people that post I bought coated bullets that were similar in shape & weight to test against my home cast/lubed bullets and my findings were yada-yada-yada.

How about I bought bullets that were nothing like mine. The alloys they were made with is nothing like mine. The coated bullets I bought will act/perform nothing like mine.

Try doing head to head testing with your own cast bullets.

Have to seat deeper:
Myself, I always look at the leade of the throat of the chamber in a semi-automatic pistol. What the throating looks like tells me what bullet design to use for accuracy.

What most bbl's look like, Un throated. Most mfg's skip this step anymore and the result is the consumer ends up with a firearm that bbl is best designed for rn/ball ammo.


Same bbl that's been throated.


Everyone looks at this picture and sets their oal's up with their cast bullets so they head space on the bullet/best accuracy.


Myself, I never do that simply because I'm not a good enough reloader to make consistent ammo. Nor am I a good enough caster to make consistent bullets. My reloads very +/- 5/1000th's with their oal. So I set the oal for 10/1000th's less then the plunk test when doing the best accuracy with lead bullets thing. The end result is it doesn't matter if the same bullet is coated or traditionally lubed. They all load/shoot with acceptable accuracy.

Acceptable accuracy to me (I know it isn't 50yds) is all bullets touching @ 50ft. 3 different cast coated bullets for a $700 1911/45acp.


Same 4.3gr load of clays 3 different bullets 5-shot groups @ 50ft.


I use the same load/same oal/ same cast bullet with either traditional lube or coated.

At the end of the day there's some much parroting/mis information about coated bullets out there.

I've been casting for decades but powder coating for only a few years.

I'm totally sold on powder coating.

Every now and then I'll tumble lube some wadcutters and MAN the smoke!!

I started casting about 5yr ago. When I did it was less costly to do powder coating rather than traditional lube… cheap toaster oven and then getting the powder. For me cost was the main motivation. Some folks are happy with the tumble lube which is even easier and cheaper than powder coating. Another benefit to coating I appreciate is the ease of handling once the bullets are coated… no residue on hands or reloading equipment. I’ve used some tumble lube here and there but it seems to leave a fair bit of residue in my dies.

Smoke ..... don't care either way.
No one thing made my a coating convert, but rather, several.
As Forrest r has illustrated, they actually are just as accurate as their traditional counterparts. If accuracy is all that matters, there's no argument either way and no cause to condemn either.
But that's not all that matters.
Lube migrates during the loading process and eventually interferes with the loading process as it builds up in the die.
Coatings stay put and never cause a stoppage at the press.
Coatings don't liquefy in a hot environment. It hasn't happened often, but good ammo has been made mediocre by a stay in a car because the lube contaminated the powder.
Coatings are less temperamental.
The classic combo is and always has been traditional cast lead over some charge of Unique. It works.
use any of the new higher performance powders and somehow, we end up with lead fowling and frustration before capitulating and returning to our old trusted friend Unique. Coatings don't care. This opens up many possibilities to explore that traditional lube didn't seem to allow.
These things matter when you don't have a cache of 8 pound kegs of Unique, Bullseye, and 2400.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

A while back one of the cast bullet makers had a page warning not to use the 15 fastest powders with coated bullets. They also gave a recommendation for a new powder said to be made with coated bullets in mind.
The page was gone the last time I looked. We can guess why but who knows?

Don't think it is a worry.

Probably more of an alibi for their coatings' durability issues.

Or paid promotion, or change of mind, or...


FWIW it's a brand I've never read complaints about.

Dr. Ruth always said use lubrication(said with a thick accent). I protect myself with powder thanks.

Went back to shooting at indoor range during winter. Strongly prefer the coated over lubed bullets there, as does anyone else in close proximity.

While also prefer them outdoors, mainly for less clean up, ain't about to discard the boxes of lubed lead bought in preparation years ago.

I shoot a lot of bench rested 25 yard groups with my revolvers. I find traditional lubes cast bullets usually produce better accuracy that the coated bullets. The coated ones are fine for plinking and most will not notice a difference in that application. I strive for 6 shot bench rested 25 yard groups under 2 inches . Even when plinking, that level of accuracy inspires confidence. I prefer traditional lube overall but load some of both.

Been using coated for quite a few years. A lot cleaner and no bare lead contaminates. Bullseye shooters are using them with great results. I think a person may have to work with new powder charges, crimping etc. Just started using Acme Bullets and am very happy. Bayou has really good deals - free shipping on larger quantities.

One thing I have noticed is that rarely do coated bullets thrive with the same loads as my old traditional lubes. The powder might need to be adjusted a small amount one way or the other.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

Please, allow me to add my two cents!

Back around 2000, when I started casting, I was shooting a couple S&W revolvers and a Springfield Armory Trophy Match, so lubed cast bullets were acceptable. I bought the lubrisizer, the H&I dies, and I was good to go. In 2007, my accident took me out of the game for about 6 years. Precision bullseye matches started to decline, but Glock matches were more available.

I worked my club's GSSF match, and was able to borrow a pistol for the match. Even though I don't like the grip angle, I shot it well. That same year, I shot the first Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit match with my 439, and found myself at a disadvantage with the first shot DA out of the leather. I then picked up a Glock along with the P320 that I won. And as we all know, Glock doesn't recommend lead bullets.

On fixed income, I picked up everything that I needed to PC my own cast bullets, cost was less than $100, a significant difference compared to acquiring the lubrisizer and accessories. Shooting the Glocks and Sigs at under 25 yards doesn't require the bullseye accuracy for NRA Precision Pistol, so that is not an issue.

For me, I find that I can shoot more for less outlay using my PC bullets in my SIG and Glocks, with satisfying accuracy. As far as I'm concerned, if I get 2" groups at 15 yards on my paper plate targets, I can be competitive in GSSF, ShootSig, and USPSA matches, as well as the ADSS event at the Sig Academy! For bullseye at ranges and matches that allow it, I will use my lubed, cast bullets.

There is a time and place where PC bullets can shine!

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

My experience with Glock is vaguely similar.
I dislike the grip angle but shoot them about as good as anything else.
Suspect it is because of the, to me, unnatural grip angle I try harder.

I use Hi Tek coated bullets from Bayou bullets for my 1911 45acp bullseye pistol and have been very pleased with the results. I only shoot at 25 yards but at that distance it is an X-ring gun on a B-8 target.

I’ve run plenty of lubed lead bullets in all kinds of pistols as well as revolvers with very good accuracy & minimal - no barrel leading if you slug the barrels & size properly.
That being said, as soon as they came out with Hi-Tek coated I was pretty much done with lubed lead, unless I couldn’t find the bullet style/weight I wanted. Similar accuracy, but no mess & no exposed lead. Loading is nearly the same to lubed with a bit of extra care to not shave the coating.

It's like UK English vs US English.
You're close enough to function rather well but not quite everything is the same.
In my case, I've fully embraced PC, so I put in the work to optimize my loads around it.
You sound like a seasoned visitor to "my side of the pond"

__________________
it just needs more voltage

The palmetto State armory dagger is a Glock Gen 3 clone. It is offered in the S (G17) compact (G19 with 17 slide) and micro (G 43 IIRC)
They are inexpensive, about 350 complete, have a better grip angle and palm swell than the parent pistols.
They are available frame only as well. Normally $100, current on sale for 49 ... Might be a good home for your Glock slide assemblies

__________________
it just needs more voltage

I can see where you are going. The problem is not with the PSA Dagger, but the GSSF rules. Unless you are shooting Unlimited, the pistol must be stock Glock. If you are shooting in the Unlimited class, the frame MUST be manufactured by Glock. The catch is, if you are shooting in a GSSF match, you must be a member of GSSF. The GSSF benefit is that you can purchase a Glock from a Glock Blue Label dealer. Depending on the Generation, you can get a G17, G19, or G26 (or the 40 S&W equivalent) for 410-425. The added benefit is that at GSSF matches, they always have an armorer on-site that can repair and upgrade your pistol at no cost.

For anyone that is looking to shoot stationary IDPA/USPSA matches, Glock can be the solution through the GSSF program. Sig is starting to follow suit with the ShootSig program. Hopefully, S&W will see the benefit and develop their own version of GSSF and ShootSig! (HINT: these programs allow the physically challenged shooters to shoot against unchallenged shooters on a level playing field!)

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

When I started out I had a friend who would let me use
his Lyman 450 if I bought the wax rings from the lumber
yard. He mixed the lube. I made bullets that shot well out
of my model 66.

I moved away and started tumble lubing and using Lee
sizers. I made bullets that shot well out of my model 66
and the 1911's.

About 8 years ago I found out about powder coating and
once I started doing it you'd have to whip my butt with a
rattlesnake to get me to go back to the mess my original 2
types of lubricating require to make shootable bullets .

I can shoot a lot more between cleaning and fouling is
about non existant. AND I find using the same loading I
get about a 35 to 50 foot per second increase in velocity
from my handguns.

I'm sold on it primarily because I'm lazy and for me it
works as well and I have to clean my guns a lot less.

The velocity increase is an additional bonus.

__________________
never get out of the boat

would that snake be alive or animation challenged?

__________________
it just needs more voltage