Keith .38/44 load

No, what he said was: "I think that this 12gr load has been proven but......." and then he goes on to mention blown up guns.

Listen, this is how rumors and Internet lies get spread. Elmer blew up 45 Colt guns trying to make them into the "45 Magnum", he may have blown up a few 44Spl guns on his way to the 44Mag but, the poster of the previous statement is misleading someone to think that they were 38spl guns with the 12gr 2400gr load, fallacy, plain and simple.

If it was a 12gr load of a fast powder, yeah, maybe, but it isn't. If it was in a pot metal special, yeah, maybe, but they weren't, they were S&W "N" frames & 45 framed Colts.

I wonder about some folks from time to time! As the youngsters put it: SMH! (Shaking My Head)


That was me in both of the above, BTW.
You yourself acknowledge that Kieth blew up a few guns (at least two) also. I never said 38 or 357. Just stated some facts is all.
I see that a 45% overcharge still doesn't concern you...
So, now I'm a rumor starter huh?
Did I mention 45% OVERCHARGE?

WOW!!!
 
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I shoot a lot of 11gr 2400 under 160gr lswc in a M-15-2. I have tested 12gr in this same platform. I don't believe the 12gr load is over 23,000psi. Both of these loads show very little flattening of Federal small pistol primers, and offer easy extraction with gentle thumb pressure. 38spl+P ammo is now loaded to lower pressure than the old standard pressure level.
 
Unintentional as it may be......Carefully choose your words so your statements are not taken to mean something no didn't intend for them to say.

You allude to the fact that there is a hot load and then go right to blown up guns by Elmer Keith and, in this caliber, they don't correlate. At best it was an oversight, at worst it is irresponsible and misleading.

So, you tell us what it is, which one? Did he blow up 38spl guns or not with this load? Then, as I asked earlier, please provide proof that he did. If you make the assertion that he did, there should be ample proof out there, please provide it. I can be wrong. All you need to do is prove it and I will post a retraction.

Take this to the inh degree and this is how the fallacy of every Glock 40S&W that has ever had a reload through it has had a KB and that is as far from the truth as anything yet believed by tons of folks.

Elmer did blow up some guns, I don't know how many, but I am almost positive they were not 38 caliber guns and not with this load. THAT is my only point. I am sorry if that offends you but, I would want proof even if it was me that said it! ;)
 
This might be beating a dead horse but Elmer isn't the only one who used or still uses these .38-44 loads. Phil Sharpe did a lot of work with these guns and loads as did many handgun hunters of the day. I think it's a pretty good testament of how popular the .38-44 loads were when the .357 Magnum came out in 1935 and Smith & Wesson did not stop making the Heavy Duty or the Outdoorsman (Models 20 and 23 respectively) until 1966, more than thirty years later and eleven after the .44 Magnum showed up. Brian Pearce did an excellent article on the .38-44 back in the October 2006 Handloader and his loads were the same hot loads of 2400 in a pre-war Outdoorsman. It was even mentioned some of the tests that were done in the 1930's that the Outdoorsman and the Registered Magnum were the same gun except for the checkering on the barrel and top strap, the recessed cylinders and the finish. They were identical in their heat treating and strength. You have to also remember, the .357 loads in those days were pushing 1,500 fps plus from a 8 3/8 inch barrel Registered Magnum. The factory loads today for the .357 are about what those .38-44 handloads are. Sure Elmer might have blown up a few guns, but Elmer and Phil Sharpe with this load got it right and they fired something like 40,000 that were even hotter through ONE gun to prove it.
 
Well, not to add gas to the fire, but this looks like as good a place as any to post this old S&W ad I found somewhere.

They are pushing the 2" M&P K-frame like its the Hammer of Thor. From the ad copy this may be circa 1930's or so.

I have NOT verified this ad is authentic, I am posting it only because it says clearly the same thing I have seen in other S&W literature and contemporary write ups:

"...and makes it possible to fire even the .38/44 S&W Special cartridge..."

S&W Ad.jpg

Sorry for the small size, it's the best I can do with the forum software.
 
I have fired enough of Elmer's loads out of a 38/44 to say I ain't gonna do the same out of a 2" M&P no matter what S&W says.:eek:

Momma raised some dummies, but they was my sister!!!:cool:
 
Down here, due to the stupidity of the law, being caught with .357 ammo is a ticket to jail and the confiscation of your toys. However, .38 Special is just fine if you've got the permits to go with it. There are a lot of our members with the standard Outdoorsman and Heavy Duty issue revolvers -- and some more that are "home made" out of VERBOTTEN model numbers that can fool everyone but the hardened S&W aficianados.

The Elmer load is the standard "hot" loading. In all the revolvers I've seen it fired in, it provides "one-thumb extraction". In other words, holding the revolver in your left hand (as the right hand reaches for your next speedloader) with the baby finger and the index finger wrapped over the top of the frame and the two middle fingers inserted into the cylinder-square and gripped on top of the open cylinder, a simple push from your thumb on the extractor rod will clear the empties.

No need to hit the rod smartly or employ your other hand to clear the piece, they just push out. That's good enough. Velocities are around 1,340 to 1,360 fps with our 358429 bullets (which weigh 166 grains out of the two different 4-cavity moulds we have here using #2 alloy) out of 6.5 inch Outdoorsman revolvers. Out of my 1956 era Heavy Duty, they run around 1,280 to 1,290 fps. Out of a "homemade" and rather tightly gapped 8 3/8 inch Model 23 we have around here they run 1,400 to 1,420. These same velocities register out of another friend's 8-inch ".38 Special Target Python".

I would not like to give the impression we shoot these loads all the time, that would be untrue. They are the maximum loads we use. However, most of our shooting is with the Lee 158 grain (which weighs 162 with our mix) tumble lube SWC bullets over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. When we play with heavier stuff, it's usually the 358429 bullets over 7.5 grains of Unique or 12.5 grains of 2400.

Again: all out of .38 Special cases. Using the longer case would be suicidal, as the Police and Army have traffic stops all over the place. As long as you have what you are permitted to have (as indicated on your transport permits), you are fine but whoe to the person who is stopped with something they are not supposed to have. Since the .357 is VERBOTTEN, there is no way you could have it, so we would not use it.

We load the 358429 only in heavier loadings, NEVER using it for regular .38 Special. That way we ourselves have a form of visual indicator that said loading should not be inserted into the wife's Model 36. Casting and reloading are not big-time hobbies here in Mexico as the regulations make it difficult. Still, within our group -- which is a fairly decent sized group in which everyone does cast and reload their own -- there is a clear understanding that the Keith bullet is used for Keith loads (or reasonable facsimiles) and nothing else. Primers are colored RED using a magic marker on all loads that are above .38 Special regular power levels as an additional safety step to prevent accidental loading of such rounds into light .38 revolvers.

We try to be very careful with these loadings to avoid any possible mix-up. These loads are more than powerful enough considering that the Mexican Army would love to leave us with nothing worthy of serious use.

I tend to pamper my Heavy Duty. But it certainly WILL take the Elmer loading of a 356429 over 13.5 grains of 2400 and still offer "one thumb extraction".
Heavy_Duty_0111.jpg


The Outdoorsman revolvers are extremely popular in our group, and the guys use them "loaded up" sometimes with the Elmer load or a slight reduction thereof. This one here unfortunately a reblue which caught the hammer and trigger as well...
38-44_James1.jpg


Here's an interesting one. A roundbutt 19 that became an 8 3/8th inch K-38. I saw some of the Keith loads chronoed out of this one, and they came out close to 1,400 fps, but a little under if I remember correctly. 1,380 or something like that. The owner of this one doesn't generally shoot it with loads that hot, but they certainly did work when we tried it and didn't split his forcing cone either. Yes, one-thumb extraction again.
Silver20Menace.jpg


Mexico has lots of problems, there's no doubt about it. Reloading and shooting down here make every week of one's life into something out of a "Sons of Anarchy" episode just getting components and equipment. But, we have a 365 day shooting season -- it's always summer, just some days are hotter than others -- and the Elmer load lets us shoot our guns with something that does better than stock non +P .38 Special. We appreciate that.
Erika.jpg
 
Calmex,

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing your insights.
 
Yeah, thanks for the report from the south and for reminding us that
living and rolling the way you wish is worth some effort and trouble. Buena suerte.
 
This might be beating a dead horse but Elmer isn't the only one who used or still uses these .38-44 loads. Phil Sharpe did a lot of work with these guns and loads as did many handgun hunters of the day. I think it's a pretty good testament of how popular the .38-44 loads were when the .357 Magnum came out in 1935 and Smith & Wesson did not stop making the Heavy Duty or the Outdoorsman (Models 20 and 23 respectively) until 1966, more than thirty years later and eleven after the .44 Magnum showed up. Brian Pearce did an excellent article on the .38-44 back in the October 2006 Handloader and his loads were the same hot loads of 2400 in a pre-war Outdoorsman. It was even mentioned some of the tests that were done in the 1930's that the Outdoorsman and the Registered Magnum were the same gun except for the checkering on the barrel and top strap, the recessed cylinders and the finish. They were identical in their heat treating and strength. You have to also remember, the .357 loads in those days were pushing 1,500 fps plus from a 8 3/8 inch barrel Registered Magnum. The factory loads today for the .357 are about what those .38-44 handloads are. Sure Elmer might have blown up a few guns, but Elmer and Phil Sharpe with this load got it right and they fired something like 40,000 that were even hotter through ONE gun to prove it.

Just remember that when the FBI first selected fire arms the committee recommended the Colt Police Positive with 4 inch barrel (which is the same D frame as the 2 inch Detective Special, Cobra and Agent models) on the condition that the ammo would be the 158 grain Keith bullet at 1125 feet per second. In other words, they used the .38/44 load in their Police Positives. As one friend says, "You don't have to get in front of that revolver to figure out that it just went off." :)

That certainly started a Federal Government trend of using .38 Special loads that were really just low end .357 Magnums in small or medium frame revovlers. Anyone remember the so-called Treasury Load? The more or less identical round is now sold in Winchester's White Box as the 110 grain .357 Magnum.

The point is that neither the .38/44 (158 gr. at 1125) nor the Treasury Load were easy on the shooter or the equipment, but they weren't unsafe either.
 
Found this video from a few years ago. This is THE LOAD and is being fired in a M686 with a 6" barrel.
(click on video to watch)

 
I have an Outdoorsman that I have shot lots of the #358429's through and even though 13.0 grains of 2400 is a hot load, I prefer and my gun shoots more accurately with 12.5 grains of 2400 with that bullet. I use good Winchester +P cases and CCI standard primers and the velocity is a tad over 1,200 fps with the 6 1/2 inch barrel.

That is the load I shoot in my 34-44 HD with Berrys 158 gr plated bullets.
Out of the 5" MV was 1155 fps.
Don't think I would shoot it out of a "J" or "K" frame much if at all.
 
I gotta ask, Skip Sackett, what's the story on that uber wadcutter/mini man stopper bullet? I was given a handful of the Webley .455 flat bullets awhile back and thought they'd be a great choice for 38 if they existed. Thanks.
-Jesse
 
JW,
That is a 160gr bullet I cast from a Modern Bond mould I have. It is pretty cool and I have at least one friend that carries them for self defense loads. I have a snubby that is stoked with them too.
 
Posted this in another forum, IO.

I have a 358156 or 7 I guess, after being hollowpointed by Eric Ohler..I think that was his name. I use the real Skeeter load, 13.5 grs of 2400 in a .38 spec. case. Using my 6" M-28 tried it out on 5 one gallon plastic bottles lined up a couple of weeks ago. first three pretty much came apart, fourth had a hole in it and the fifth looked untouched until I saw a small leak and noticed a .38 calibre collar button sitting in the bottom of the last jug. This is one of my favorite .38 molds, is very accurate in hp and solid form. I'm going to try casting with a softer alloy and work up a nice non +p load for my Colt Cobra
 
Groo here
One thing that all should consider is the exact mix for this load..
A heavy frame or gun proofed for 38-44 loads, 38 cases not necessarily
+p, the Keith load of 2400 powder . and a Keith bullet!!!!!
Said bullet designed for the 38-44 short cylinder guns to use the full length and increasing the powder room.[ not the short nose swc bullets we see most places],
This gives you about the same powder room as a 357 with a standard bullet.
It is a very specific combination....
 
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