Strange Old Old Russian Model

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Philing

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I have got this S&W N°3 Russian First Model known as Old Old Model Russian.
This one was part of the Russian contract with Cyrillic barrel inscription. What is strange is that although its serial number is 19xxx it is equipped with the hammer actuated cylinder stops used in the American models and may be in some of the first 3000 Russian wich were manufactured with some features of the first American model. This one is obviously at the end of production of the first Russian contract numbered from 1 to about 20000. An explanation could be that it has been rejected by the Russian inspector due to the use of old parts ? The fact it has been rejected is based on the P letter found on each side of the barrel top strap and the lack of Czar's imperial eagle proof.
I have sent a Request for a letter of authenticity but I think I will not get the full history of that gun. So I would really appreciate if anyone could help me to go further.
 
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Philing,

These First Model Russians are somewhat hard to correctly identify using just the Serial Number to base your research on!! They were produced in Serial No. Ranges that overlapped at the same time!! The Russian Contract Serial No. Range starts at Serial No.1 & continues somewhere into the 20,000 Range & the Commercially Shipped Revolvers started somewhere in the 6,000 Range & continued into the Low 30,000 Range!! I believe what you have is a Commercially Shipped First Model Russian Revolver that never left the U.S.!! The Commercial Revolvers also had the Cyrillic Roll-Marked S&W Barrel Address & most are confused by this!!

Also,you are correct in assuming that a Factory Letter isn't going to give you much info regarding the Revolver unless things have changed drastically in recent years!! Some years back you were lucky if you received a Full Shipping Date let alone a Shipping Destination!! The Letters had a brief overview of the Model & generally read *Quote*~"Your Revolver,Serial Number XXXXX,was shipped from our Factory in 18XX"~& that was about the extent of the info!! Hopefully this has changed as I haven't had one of these "Lettered" since the Mid-Eighties!! When your "Letter" arrives I'm hoping you will post the results because I'm anxious to see if things have changed!!
 
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I agree with Masterpiece. This gun is probably a Russian contract reject and was then sold commercially. The Russian inspectors were very careful in their inspections, as the Tsar was known to have inspectors executed should a gun shipped to Russia have any problems after it's receipt! Marcus Hartley's ammunition company made cartridges for the S&W Russian contract guns. A Russian Officer responsible for the ammo. shipped to Russia, was present when the Tsar was handed a loaded S&W to fire at a target with the new ammo. The first two rounds were duds and the officer was shot on the spot at the Tsars orders. After that, Russian inspectors at Hartley's ammo. plant increased their deligence quite a few notches!.
S&W letters are much better now than back in the 80s, however the American Model shipping records are very scant and difficult to read. Often commercial guns and included in batch orders w/o all serial numbers being recorded, so Roy has to extrapolate a ship date based on close numbers and close dates. Ed.
 
It's interesting to me that the inscription reads "Smith & Wesson Arms Factory Springfield, America" - no mention of Mass.
 
GyMac, I believe that's because Russia did not have states, as we know them. The barrel stamping was as provided by the Russians, so inclusion of a state name ( Massachusetts) was irrelevant to a Russian. If you sent a letter to Russia, the address, for example, was 'Moscow, Russia" or "St. Petersburg, Russia" etc. No further definition was needed. Most of Europe was that way. Ed.
 
Thanks for the info Materpiece. Ya learn something new every day. I thought that all the Russian rejects had the Russian barrel lettering ground-off and restamped in English. No mention of that in Pates book either. Interesting.
 
Thanks to all for your comments.
OK Masterpiece, I agree it has finish on the commercial market and has never left the U.S. but if it is marked in Cyrillic I think it is because it was initially destined to the Russian market. So if has not been delivered to Russia it's because it has been rejected. Is it right ?
My concern is about the fact that it shows characteristics of the late first Russian models with the larger trigger pin which was normally associated with the trigger actuated cylinder stops and nevertheless has the old hammer actuated cylinder stops.
 
Philing, Your revolver is a great example of the old adage that S&W never threw away anything. A mix of old and new parts is not uncommon for American models as the S&W distributors were begging for guns to sell commercially at the time. Taking time to grind off a prior stamping on a Russian reject gun, just to ad the factory stamping in English, was not a priority to a distributors, as they had multiple back orders for any American/Russian models they could get S&W to send them. Remember, the Rollin White patent for bored through chambers in a cylinder had just expired and at the time (1870) S&W was the only legal maker of a big bore cartridge revolver available to the public. Colt was hot on their heels putting the Single Action Army into production and shortly gained control of the American market, as S&Ws production capability was absorbed by the Russian contracts for the next few years, leaving only a small quantity of civilian S&Ws available for distributors. Another example of S&W using old parts is the first Turkish contract of 1,000 Model 3s in .44RF Henry caliber, used cut down American model barrels, with English stampings.

Ed
 
Thanks Ed!!

Ed,

Good Explanation!! I've been sitting here all morning contemplating just exactly how I could explain this to Philing & have him understand the point both you & I were trying to get across in regards to the engineering irregularities found on these First Model Russians!! Thanks!!! As far as I'm concerned you hit the nail right on the head!! I certainly hope when his Letter arrives Roy has something to say about the issues at hand!! Maybe then,since you said his letters are a bit more informative than in the past,some or all of his questions will be answered to his satisfaction!!
 
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This thread has been truly interesting, especially the consequences for poor quality control. It makes me really wonder about a Colt 1911 that I saw about 20 years ago. It carried Cyrillic factory markings and I never thought to ask why. They weren't added on, they seemed to be from the factory. I think I will post on the other forum to see if they have an answer.
 
I have got the answer from Roy and it seems that this gun has really been delivered to Russia :
"We have researched your Smith & Wesson Model 3 Russian First Model, Russian Contract Variation, caliber .44 S&W Russian, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 19xxx was shipped from our factory on August 21, 1872, and delivered to Russian Government, St. Petersburg, Russia. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with an 8 inch barrel, blue finish and smooth walnut grips. This shipment was for 6400 units and was the third shipment made of the 20,000 unit order. The hammer activated cylinder stop was use well into the 1873 time period."

I can understand that the "old" cylinder stop has been used but if it has been delivered to Russia it should have the Czar's imperial eagle proof ?
 
Philing, Yes, In a perfect world, contract gun, delivered to Russia, should have the Imperial Eagle stamp. Also. in a perfect world, S&W shipping records would never have any errors. Roy's letters can only reflect what he sees in the shippings records and/or what he can reasonably extrapolate from them. The American shipping records are very vague, in many cases, and an entry may be a "batch" entry saying X numbers of guns shipped to a certain destination w/o listing all the serial numbers of the guns in that shipment, so Roy has to use his best judgement as to whether a particular gun he is researching was actually in that batch. Knowing the drastic penalty an inspector faced for any gun arriving in Russia that wasn't up to snuff, I have to question
the evidence that your gun was actually in a Russian shipment, regardless of what the shipping records state. On the other hand, I assume you acquired the gun from a source outside the USA, so the gun did find it's way overseas, whether through a Russian shipment or through commercial channels. Speculation is always part of collecting American models, and the various clues you come across in your studies of them can lead you to answers not always as obvious as with other models of Smith & Wessons. Ed.
 
As I understand things, the imperial eagle was supposedly the Russian inspectors final stamp of acceptance. Why this is missing on this example I cannot fathom. The inspectors were very meticulous. Definately points to ponder with this gun. Nevertheless a fine piece still shrouded in some mystery.

The P stamping on either side of the top strap is a Russian inspectors acceptance stamp, so there was no problem with the barrel/latch assembly. The absence of inspector stamps on cylinder and frame could have been a problem found with both assemblies, which may explain the barrel being stamped with the Russian lettering but no final eagle acceptance. Are there any partially encircled letter D's on the frame or cylinder rear face?

Personal theory, the gun was probably not finally accepted by the Russians and was disposed of on the civilian market, from whence it ended up outside the U.S. by whatever means.
 
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