Gentlemen,

I've been working out the specifics on an acceptable load for my 1st Model .44 D.A. revolver. Just wanted to pass along a little information regarding some recent testing. I read an article published by Mike Venturio regarding the use of black powder in his earlier model single action revolvers, trying to duplicate the original black powder load. It seems he had good luck and proper f.p.s. using 18 gr. of Swiss 3F behind a 200 gr. lead projectile. I load up some older excellent condition W.R.A. ballon cases I had in quantity with this load and WLP primers and found that this is an excellent load for use in any older S&W blackpowder era .44 caliber revolver. I used my 2nd Model H.E. as a test mule and found that this blackpowder load is ever bit as potent and accurate as the HSM "cowboy" .44 Russian cartridges. I shot this load in demonstration to a few other pistol shooters and found them to be impressed with the noise and concussion, compared to smokeless HSM "cowboy" loads. Target-wise its a toss-up, although with practice and time I'm sure the black powder load will be as effective as the smokeless. Cleaning my equipment is just part of the hobby, you shouldn't let the black powder residue rest anywhere for too long unless your fond of patina.

Huh?!?!

I sure hope there is/was no dead space. You really want to load such that the bullet when seated is 1/8" to 1/16" greater than the heighth of the powder or powder and filler. I recall that in .44-40, 38 grains was about right. I cannot recall how many grains I used in .44 Russian, but 25 seemed about right. So, the difference was certainly about 7 grains of Cream of Wheat, or other similar filler between the FFFg powder and the cookie, right?

Yes, I like FFFg as well.

Anecdote: I like to say, when you seat your bullet, you want to hear it "crunch"!

I too had a similar concern and fully understand the need to compress a black powder load. I've probably burned through at least a hundred pounds of black over the past five or six years, often going through a pound a week with my big fifty-four. I measured out the 18 grains by using an old Belding and Mull powder measure and a scale. Getting the measure to throw a consistent 18 grains took time but eventually it worked great, I then used a drop tube and tried out a case to see how much space was left. A quick measurement of space left and distance of bullet that would be seated gave me no reason to worry about dead air space, not a good crunch but a firm seated pressure. I've fooled around with black powder loads in an old Trapdoor and in order to seventy grains and a thin wad I get a real solid crunch. By the way there is a considerable difference between setting the scale on a powder measure and the actual weight. By the time I had eighteen grains measuring on the scale the corresponding measurement on the powder measure was set close to twenty grains, possibly due to the finer grains of the Old Eynsford. We have found the 3F Old Eysford provides a much snappier, consistent and accurate shot to shot as opposed to Goex 3F, its Goex's answer to Swiss and although does not quite perform up to Swiss it does work very well. I use 1-1/2 Old Eysford in my percussion target rifle, the only powder that works better is Swiss and its not better enough to warrant paying the extra bucks per pound.
I have a couple of Ruger Old Armys and find that fifteen grains of 3F Old Eynsford and an additional load of Cream of Wheat and lube soaked felt wad to bring the ball up even with the cylinder mouth is about as accurate a load as you can ask for when punching paper at twenty-five yards.
Thanks for the interest...

I have dissected several 44 Russian BP rounds over the years and find the following to be of interest. First, the 44 Russian case, as far as I know, was never designed with a heeled bullet, so did not have a balloon style bullet or case. The powder charge averaged 20 to 22 grains of black powder. It was finer than 3F, but slightly more coarse than 4F.

The case of original 44 Russians had more volume, the base was much thinner, showing a ring around the primer pocket. The bullets had a depression in the base, not a true hollow base, but just a domed depression. The 250 grain bullet was set slightly higher than today's designs and the exposed lead was longer than modern LRN. The bullet offered a conical shape with a rounded nose.

I could never get more than 15 grains of 3F in my loading a 250 grain LRN, and they ran about 700 fps. 15 grains of 4F was about 750 fps with the same bullet. Chronographed original BP 44 Russian rounds ran slightly over 800 fps. You will never be able to match the original loading of this caliber due to the reduced volumes in modern cases, but velocities are good enough for shooting at the range.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I never weigh black powder, so my numbers and yours will not match. I checked my notes to find that original 44 Russian BP loads of 20 grains only weighed 17 grains. I find that volume numbers will always be higher than weight values when using a standard powder measure. I believe that when you typically read about loading this or that with BP, the number is usually a volume number, not weight. Also, going from 1F to 4F, weights to volume ratios will change a slight amount. The amount of change is relatively small, but with reloading cartridges, it is all about filling the void and not by any published weight.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

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This is the base of the cartridges I have, they are W.R.A. cases. With my limited experience loading black powder the manufacturer makes all the difference in the world. When you get down to the very serious business of Black Powder Cartridge shooting they get down to lot numbers and from what I can see by their results it either is a factor or gives them enough confidence to differ results. I stick to mostly loading my rifles from the front end and it doesn't make all that big a difference until you get to shooting one hole groups off the bench. Goex is our standard powder, I won't bother with any of the lesser powders including Schuetzen. Some of the guys with very limited money have resorted to shooting it and it leads to problems with fouling, etc. For my day to day shooting I measure by volume with an old school Pacific Measure-kit powder throw and a steel graduated measure. When it comes down to trying to get the most accuracy you need to weigh your charges, all of the big time bench shooters come to matches with their powder pre-weighed in glass test tubes. A friend of mine is a national bench competitor and he takes it very seriously and Swiss is the only game in town. I have found the 3F Old Eysnford Goex to function very well in blackpowder pistols, burns very clean by comparison. In my rifled guns I use Teflon coated fabric patches, again taking a lesson from my bench rest shooting friend. Teflon coated fabric is the only patch that will hold up to the pressures of high velocity loads and an overbore projectile, all of which leads to accuracy. We look for low rate of twist barrels and then pour the powder to it, by the time the ball is seated it has turned in a bullet. My spit patch shooting buddies shoot an underbore .440 or .445 size ball and 50 grs. of 3F at 50 yds. I shoot a .451 ball with a .020 Teflon patch and 70 gr. of 3F, the proof is in the scores. I've messed around with spit patch and every type of lube you can think of from everything except Sperm Whale Oil (which was supposed to be the best.) My bench rest shooting buddy gave me some Teflon and said "Here try this." My group shrank by half, I was hooked. Some of the old timers will say "That stuff will ruin a barrel." OK...we have experienced some problems with Teflon burning or streaking in a barrel which required scrubbing with a brass brush and Hoppes No. 9 but once sorted out no problems. The one downside to Teflon is that each shot must be cleaned, after a shot I run a cleaning solution soaked patch (semi-dry) down the barrel and swab it, then take it out, flip it over and repeat. Like everything in the muzzle loading game consistency is everything, I cast my own balls and weigh them, separating into .3 difference, so that I have groups of .451 balls that weigh between 138.7-138.0 grs, and so on. Its amazing how there will most often only be three groups in a good pour of over 250 balls, the range is within that .9 grains over the whole pour...there are usually a few that end up back in the pot or offhand but its less than 10-20 in a good pour.
I've kinda gotten off the track, but thanks for your input...I appreciate the vote of confidence.

You obviously know your stuff. My apologies for the insult.

I have shot round ball for many years and settled on Swiss 3F for my rifles and 2F for my Tule fowler. 40 cal. pistol will shoot either 3F or 4F. I have tried most everything for patching, but settled on Ox-Yoke Wonder Lube patches. Have not tried Teflon yet, but our matches are usually 20 rounds and that is a lot of cleaning if done after every shot. Enjoy the sport and shoot only flintlocks, except for my Walker percussion revolver.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Howdy

I have been loading 44 Russian with Black Powder for probably ten years now for my pair of New Model Number Threes and a couple of Double Action 44s.








I'm not attempting to duplicate historical loads, just come up with a nice BP load for these old guns to use in Cowboy Action Shooting.

I was using a custom made dipper, from a cut down 44 Russian shell which portioned out about 17.8 grains of Schuetzen FFg, under a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet lubed with SPG. I usually use Federal Large Pistol primers, but any large pistol primer will do. My standard loading for any Black Powder cartridge is to put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by between 1/16" and 1/8". This amount of powder with this bullet achieves that. You may note the huge lube groove in the bullet, which makes it perfect for shooting lots of BP loads without binding the revolver up with fouling.






These days, rather than dipping my powder I use a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on my Hornady Lock and Load AP progressive press. I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them and use the powder rotors for my various BP loads. This way I can keep each rotor set for the charge I want for a particular cartridge. Here are a couple of rotors, one set up for 45-70, the other set up for 45 Schofield.






Here is a batch of 44 Russians being loaded on my Hornady press. Yes, the cases are stained. After being fired I soak my brass in a jug of water with a squirt of dishsoap in it, then rinse them out real good until the rinse water runs clear. Then I air dry them for a couple of days before tumbling them in Lizzard Litter (crushed walnut available at pet stores). I don't add any polishing agents to the tumbler, just the walnut. I always say stained brass shoots just as well as shiny brass, it is just not as easy to find in the grass.





These loads are pleasant to shoot. The recoil is not as stout as a 45 Colt or 44-40, with their larger powder capacity than 44 Russian. But they are certainly not the mousefarts that often are used in CAS.

I agree with you that for precision Black Powder Cartridge competition, drop tubes are a good thing. But for my purposes, the rotors on my powder measure are consistent enough.

I find your comments about Schuetzen vs Goex interesting. In my experience, Schuetzen burns a little bit cleaner than Goex. That is why I prefer it.

Anybody here tried using a drop tube on pistol cases? I use one for loading 45/70 BP and it does make a difference.....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Great and interesting thread very cool facts figures firearms and equipment. I was told years ago that the balls used in BP front loaders was very soft lead compared to modern bullets there for they made devastating wounds if hitting bone ect even at lower velocities .Is this true and does it hold true for other projectiles like bullets in BP cartridge firearms ? Just curious .

I managed to avoid damaging myself and my equipment shooting black powder for several years through sheer dumb luck way back when--------- having never been schooled about air space. About to start shooting black powder again, I contacted Gary ("glowe") for any helpful hints. One of them was about air space----he said air space in a black powder load was "the definition of a pipe bomb".

The man has a way with words.

Ralph Tremaine

I've taken a number of original black powder cases apart over the years to use the cases for reloading. I'm always surprised to see that many of them were not compressed charges, or even full loads. With all the talk of having to ensure BP is a full case, it seems the manufacturers didn't have the same concerns back in the 1800's if the cases I disassembled are any indication.

Two notes on stained BP cases. I use all brass hulls in 20 and 12 gauge, they get very stained! 1) when firing BP in Brass cases, to avoid staining don't use water. Use windshield washer fluid. (add dish soap if you wish but I never really found any advantage either way. 2) the wet with stainless steel pins tumbling method, will clean even blackened brass to look like new, inside and out. Pre soaking isn't necessary for cleaning but will stop or at least slow the destruction of corroding brass.

I also load 38-55-330, 45-70-405 & 500, 45 S&W, 45 Colt, 44 WCF, and 44 S&W Russian with black powder. I found that most Lyman cast bullets don't hold enough lube in those small lube grooves so a 1/8" SPG lube cookie between bullet and powder is necessary to keep fouling low enough for sustained shooting. On handgun loads where there isn't enough space to allow full charge and a cookie, you can dip the nose in Crisco or SPG (like a cap & ball revolver).

Ivan

I always use a drop tube with black powder cartridges, I haven't tried the vibration method of putting one block atop the fully loaded case block and then tapping with a hammer to settle the powder. I use a 30" drop tube with an attached funnel, it seems to work very well. It can be a bit of a struggle to hold the tube balanced on the funnel of the case mouth, then measure and pour the prescribed load but in the end it all takes time.

My BP drop tube is from Shiloh Sharps and has a stand that holds the tube at what ever distance in or above the case mouth. I believe it is 28", the key is to pour the powder into the tube at the same speed (for 45-70 I use a 5 count) The powder is compacted into the case as if you had used a compressor die! It is about 1/2" compaction for a 65 grain FFg charge. This leaves plenty of room for working with an over the powder card and then a lube cookie and then the bullet!

Ivan

If you want to make a stand for you drop tube go to Shiloh's website and see the design. The tube is held by two screw eyes, the tube is held at the adjustable height by an O-ring but a rubber band would work. Their stand is made of Oak, but plywood would do just fine! 3/8" thinwall brass tube would be best (try a hobby store or web site, 3/8 plumbing copper is too thick! (guess how I know!)

One never knows how those old cartridges were stored, how much abuse the sustained, how much degradation due to high humidity, etc. My guess is that the cases were full when originally loaded, but small amounts of air typically does not pose imminent danger. Reloading BP as normally stated, with slight compression, is still the best method of ensuring low standard deviation numbers and consistent velocities & pressures. You will find some factory loads with cotton or another material as a filler to eliminate most of the air space as well.

Loading with a lot of air space is an extremely dangerous operation. One instance of too much air space in a muzzleloading rifle occurred to a person who shall remain nameless. The 50 caliber rifle was loaded with 50 grains of FFF and the ball was started down the barrel using a short starter. Problem was that the gun was fired without pushing the ball down to against the powder. Results are in the images below.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The old "short starter shot", happens to just about everybody that spends any amount of time shooting muzzle loaders. The modern rifles aren't as sensitive to splitting like the one pictured, your more apt to "ring" the barrel, depending on how much powder was poured down first, flintlocks are a little more forgiving due to the fact that there is an open vent for the gases to escape, also one of the reasons flintlocks run quite a bit cleaner than percussion guns, the residue will vent as "ejecta" and not tend to foul the breech as much as a percussion gun will. I have seen a few rifles come undone over the years, one came apart at the breech due to mismatched threads that was known well in advance, hence no surprise to its owner who escaped unharmed. I blew a nipple out of a percussion gun by mistakenly using a metric threaded nipple in a standard thread breech, I loaded and shot it the first go, cleaned, loaded and shot the second and third. On the fourth shot the nipple literally blew out and hot gases, etc. blew straight back towards my right eye. I had gotten into the bad habit of shooting over my glasses at long range because I saw better or clearer without the glasses than with. Fortunately for me I was using a Hadley eye-cup with a very small aperture, the hot came back through that aperture and scared the bejasus out of me, I thought I was blinded. We never did find the nipple, my eye recovered but six months later my optometrist noticed a very small scar on my lens, lesson learned.
With metallic cartridges I never shoot any reloads that I have not loaded with exception to one friend of mine that uses a Dillion and is more anal than I am about that kind of stuff. I used to shoot other people's reloads and payed for it one time after shooting some cast bullets a friend loaded up for me to try in my .357 magnum, 110 gr lead alloy. I fired a cylinder full and was very impressed with the flash and boom, ejected the brass and could see the lead melted around the forcing cone, it looked like someone had poured liquid lead down the barrel. Another buddy of mine said "No problem man, shoot a cylinder full of hot jacketed bullets, that'll fix you right up." After that I fully knew what was meant when someone said "Hotter than a Colt pistol." The barrel on that old Trooper was too hot to handle. Today in my older age, caution rules the day. I always appreciate any input from those that have done stuff before me and only hope I can pass on information to those that can learn by my mistakes.

Oh shoot a pipe bomb indeed ,that scared me just looking at the pictures.

The good news is that the barrel used to be 42", so far away from the shooter.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Most of the time when I've been around a situation where either myself or another shooter has set off a short started load we usually comment with something like "I can fart louder than that shot, did you short start?" Where a guy can get into trouble is with a heavy hunting load with a short start, most of the time a standard load used on the target range is between 50-70 grns and nobody I know is shooting an original rifle made by welding three or four pieces of bar stock around a mandrel. Most of the modern stuff is cut from bar stock, we've got a barrel builder in our club. I've had excellent results using Getz, Rice and Colraine barrels. My older percussion target rifle has a Douglass Premium barrel that has proven excellent. My oldest rifle was built back in the 1980's by a gunsmith from Wisconsin, he used Getz barrels. We generally have found that the barrels with a slow twist like 1 in 66 perform the best and when you can't get them to shoot tight you need to pour the powder to them where the faster twist barrels like the Thompson Center 1 in 45s don't respond to higher powder loads, they are really a compromise twist for the use of both bullets and roundball. A good roundball rifle will have a slow twist, the slower the better. I've only seen a 1 in 72 but that would probably be an excellent roundball gun. My fowler's barrel was made by Ed Rayl, its a .68 caliber octagon to round smooth bore. Last year I won the smooth bore competition with that gun.
For the most part I have seen far more destruction done by smokeless cartridge firearms than done by black powder. Most of that is due to more smokeless stuff being used today, not too much black powder cartridge in this area, we don't cater to the CASS crowd. I do have some interesting tattoos on my left hand from getting in the way of a flintlock vent and a premature firing. Always keep that bugger pointed downrange.

That was a Buckeye barrel ordered through Chambers as part of a Lancaster kit. The barrel was swamped and at the location where the burst occurred had a wall thickness of only 0.12". It was the only swamped barrel gun I have and probably will not own another one. Both my other 44/45 caliber flintlocks I own have straight barrels with a wall thickness twice that of the Chambers.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The rifle I just finished has a swamped barrel, 44" made by Rice...now you've got me thinkin about being a little more careful with my loading. Because this barrel is so dang long I have to use a short starter of 6-8" in length in order to get enough leverage on my range rod and keep everything in line. I also have to tip the barrel to load under the roof of the 25yd line range, barely have room to set the loading rod into the barrel after short starting to load vertically out on the 50-100 yd range where I spend most of my time. With my 100yd rifle I generally do not have any problems requiring a short starter, I just seat the ball on the patch and drive it on down with the range rod. That's part of the beauty of Teflon, I can get away with using a .451 ball/.020 Teflon patch and shove it on down with a range rod, I used to have to beat stuff down the barrel, Teflon is the catsass.

Howdy Again

Since I load my BP pistol cases on a progressive press, I don't use a drop tube. Just not necessary for my purposes. My BP measure throws consistent enough charges for what I need.

I do use a drop tube when loading 45-70. I made up a stand for a Lyman drop tube out of white ash a long time ago. Since I load 45-70 on a single stage press, the drop tube fits right into the process. The Colt is in the photo for a sense of scale.

Trye just 9 grain swiss no 2 behind a 200 grain bullet. I do use this in a New Model 3 and a replica of the Russian. Suprisingly it works very wel.

I assume your tube is aluminum?

It is just not necessary to use drop tubes for small charges of BP, since there is just not enough volume to make any difference. If a drop tube is used, in my mind is should be copper or aluminum, not iron/steel or plastic. In dry or cold climates, the use of plastic pipe can generate a large static charge, possibly leading to sparks, and powders clinging to the inside of the pipe. Static sparks with plastic pipe is actually more of a potential danger than using steel, but static charges and steel to steel sparks are still a possibility when reloading. The action of transporting granular solids in either material caused static buildup.

This may be taking things to extremes, but I do not use a tube any more. I was experimenting with vibratory compaction and conducted an experiment using my loading block and mounting a small orbital sander under a block of wood. I loaded a case full of 45-90 brass and held it on the sander pad. It worked so well that you could see that the 90 grains of powder settled more than when using my drop tube. I built a small enclosed wood box with the sander mounted upside down under the box. Foam pads on the bottom to isolate vibration and now vibrate instead of the drop tube. Once my loading block is loaded with powder, I turn on the sander and hold each case briefly on the box and go through 50 quickly. You can actually see the powder settle into the case, eliminating air space, actually allows me to increase volume over what the drop tube does.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Makes sense to me Gary, I think I mentioned that most of my shooting is done with muzzle loaders. Most of the guys in our club are retired and old, constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. Tinkers...can't leave anything alone, probably where most problems concerning Bubba come from, namely boredom. We are all very much aware of how dangerous black can be and most of us have seen errors that often result in injury. I am of the opinion that most of these incidents result from loosing track of the fact we are dealing with an explosive, people get too overconfident or careless. I had a cousin that blew himself up with blasting powder, my grandfather thought it was suicide. Grandpa said "Neal had spent his entire life working with that stuff, he knew what he was doing." They couldn't accept the fact that maybe because he had spent his entire lifetime around it that he got careless and dropped an ash from his smoke into the can or whatever. You have to be careful with this stuff.