nitro in load s&w DA frontier 44/40 61/2 inch barrel

I have the intention to shoot this type of handgun
can someone with experiences give me some hinds
I shoot a winchester 1873 musket 44/40 and reload with vihtavuori N340 8 gn a 200 gn lead bullet sized 428 at 100m
this load works very well in this type of rifle this powder has the same burning rate as imr sr4756 or Longshot from hodgdon or herco from alliant .
please advice your loads
greetings from flanders
Jarmann

Welcome to the Forum. I shoot both rifle and handgun in this caliber and the first piece of advise is to come up with a foolproof way to separate your rifle and pistol ammo. If you load for pistol only and shoot it in a rifle, your results will probably be less than satisfactory. If you do it the other way round, you could break your revolver. I find that higher pressure loads in my Frontier revolvers have an odd affect. It seems that as the felt recoil increased, the gun has a tendency to recoil hard against my middle finger and pushed the trigger guard loose. Very unsettling, since the trigger spring can potentially drop out of the revolver and be lost. Because of that potential, I load revolvers light.

When using smokeless powders, in my mind the advantages of having rifles and handguns the same caliber is of no more value than sharing brass and bullets. I have worked up many loads for my Henry and 1866 44 Winchester rifles and to obtain good accuracy, both guns require heavier loads than I would want to shoot in my revolvers. Now if you are going to shoot steel at 25 - 50 yards, you can probably get away with pistol loads in your rifle, but not much further. I will not load over 700 fps in my 44 Frontier and that translates to around 900 fps in my rifle, which is just not high enough to assure bullet stability. My go to powder is Trail Boss with a 200 grain RNFP. Keeping my velocities where I want them requires a chronograph and only actual loadings shot over a chrono can determine what you are shooting. As I stated, my revolver load runs right at 700 fps and with rifle I load for 1200 fps. Both loads are safe and provide lower pressures than original full load black powder.

jarmann said:

I have the intention to shoot this type of handgun
can someone with experiences give me some hinds
I shoot a winchester 1873 musket 44/40 and reload with vihtavuori N340 8 gn a 200 gn lead bullet sized 428 at 100m
this load works very well in this type of rifle this powder has the same burning rate as imr sr4756 or Longshot from hodgdon or herco from alliant .
please advice your loads
greetings from flanders
Jarmann

Click to expand...

The .44 S & W "DA"s and "SA"s were made for Black Powder Cartridges....none were approved by S & W for use with 'Smokeless'...

Originally the Black Powder .44-40 Cartridge was only one 'Standard' Cartridge and one Standard Loading, and any small variations within this were of no importance...

The .44-40 was the same Cartridge for anything chambering it, but, over time, this changed, and with the advent of Smokeless Propellants, and of erstwhile Black Powder Rifle Cartridges changing over to Smokeless, the Rifle Cartridges proper became more powerful, began having Semi-Jacketed Bullets, and the Rifle Cartridges could then be unsuited and too powerful for the early Black Powder era Revolvers.

This happened with .32-20 also, and people ruined a lot of lovely old .32 -20 Revolvers firing 'Modern' Era Smokeless Rifle Cartridges in them.

Ideally, just stay with Black Powder Loads for your old "DA" S & W Top Break .44-40.

If you want to shoot same Loads in a Revolver as you describe using in your Rifle, get a modern Colt S.A., or an Italian reproduction 'Colt' Single Action Army, and use it.

All is well then! And no worries...


"Trail Boss" or other bulky weaker Smokeless Propellants might be alright if used properly for the actual Antique Arm in question, and Loading Tables should be available for them, for a range of .44-40 Loadings, which would be safe for Antique Revolvers.

Personally I do not load any kind of Smokeless in any Black Powder era Revolvers, mostly because the original Loadings are the most fun, realistic, actual, and satisfying, but also, because I am automatically 100 percent "Fail Safe" this way with no chance of any over-pressure events.

SAAMI pressure Limit, so far as I can find, for .44-40 in older Arms, is 11,000 PSI.

Some info here -

44 Winchester "Two Peas In A Pod" - ANSI/SAAMI Specs

Trailboss is your friend if one wants a smokeless powder.

Pressure

Black powder is a gradual pressure building reaction. That’s why it “ Shoves” so hard with full loads. Smokeless builds pressure very fast and requires that you make ZERO loading errors or the charted pressure will spike!
I am intrigued by the 5.5 grain Trail Boss resulting in the low 7800 PSI max? Getting the Frontier DA or SA to pattern shoot is difficult with full black powder loads in the rifle case of the 44 WCF. It shoves hard And the grip frame is small. So maintaining the same grip and hold is difficult. Not an easy problem to solve. Mellowing out the full load would help a lot!

Murph

Murph
I have used Trail Boss in my 45-70, my .43 Mauser Arisaka 6.5, and 45 Colt. It is a great alternative to black powder. I even converted my Rossi break action Muzzle loader to use it makes hunting the muzzle loading season a breeze. It looks like little donuts I honestly don't you could overload it. Hodgen advises if they do not list your cartridge simply mark a case to where the base of your bullet would be fully seated this becomes your case capacity then work up from 50% to 75% of this capacity this powder is never compressed. If I were teaching a new reloader this is the powder I would use as it is impossible to overload it.

Oyeboteb said:

. . . Rifle Cartridges proper became more powerful, began having Semi-Jacketed Bullets, and the Rifle Cartridges could then be unsuited and too powerful for the early Black Powder era Revolvers.

This happened with .32-20 also, and people ruined a lot of lovely old .32 -20 Revolvers firing 'Modern' Era Smokeless Rifle Cartridges in them . . .

"Trail Boss" or other bulky weaker Smokeless Propellants might be alright if used properly for the actual Antique Arm in question
. . .

Click to expand...

I collect documented S&W failures, but have none for the 32-20 so would love to have your information to add to my notes.

As for the comment that Trail Boss "might be alright", I do and will state that what I load is significantly less pressure and absolutely less stress on these old guns than original black powder!!! I will never understand why there is no understanding of the facts with regards to the old wives tales that are passed on for over a hundred years without without merit of facts or documentation!

Standard literature of the era and references today is that black powder loadings runs at 22,000psi in rifles and 14,000psi in handguns. That would make my Trail Boss loads over 35% under stated original BP ammo available in the late 1800s. I can and will state that full power BP loadings actually are much harder on the 44 DA than Trail Boss. So before you load and shoot your revolver, get the facts, do the research, but the answer is obvious.

merl67 said:

Murph
I have used Trail Boss in my 45-70, my .43 Mauser Arisaka 6.5, and 45 Colt. It is a great alternative to black powder. I even converted my Rossi break action Muzzle loader to use it makes hunting the muzzle loading season a breeze. It looks like little donuts I honestly don't you could overload it. Hodgen advises if they do not list your cartridge simply mark a case to where the base of your bullet would be fully seated this becomes your case capacity then work up from 50% to 75% of this capacity this powder is never compressed. If I were teaching a new reloader this is the powder I would use as it is impossible to overload it.

Click to expand...

I don't think that statement is strictly true. It is impossible to "double charge" Trail Boss, but there are warnings not to create a compressed load. I believe the reason for that is that Trail Boss is made of little doughnut shaped flakes and that compressing it squeezes out the extra volume created by the holes in it. But as long as you follow the guidelines and never exceed the volume under the bullet you should be okay. Here is Hodgdon's loading procedure: https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uplo...07.975735183.1608652547-1381060780.1608495503

Here also is an article written by Mike Venturino from Handloader Magazine on using Trail Boss. https://www.handloadermagazine.com/trail-boss

glowe said:

I collect documented S&W failures, but have none for the 32-20 so would love to have your information to add to my notes.

Click to expand...

At one time there were a lot of bulged .32-20 barrels reported in print and www. There were various theories, some pretty outlandish. Are there any new ones?

Bulged 32-20?

Yeah,
That’s amazing! Bulging a 32-20 barrel? Even 32-20 antiques have a lot of metal thickness. I’ve seen just about every caliber antique pistol with a bulged barrel except the 32-20.
Every bulge has been attributed to “ obstruction” of some sort. Long list there! Even hollow based bullets are documented as separating and leaving a ring of lead in the barrel. I’ve actually seen that occur from poor lead casting? Even the core of a large caliber pistol lead bullet separating in the bore. Almost like gutting it? And leaving a chunk of lead in the bore. Happened to me once with my 45 Auto-rim S&W revolver. I got lucky because part of the bullet fragmented and jammed the cylinder at the forcing cone, or I would have sent another round down the tube. Funny thing is the recoil of the failed round felt normal! That really is one of the major reasons why I stick with black powder with antique pistols is obstruction. Black powder will not spike with obstruction. It will continue to build pressure normally . I’m not saying black powder can’t bulge a barrel! It definitely can but the obstruction must be significant! Like a stuck bullet! Smokeless can bulge a barrel from a minor obstruction or excessive residue, grease, run up case, etc. black powder will normally push that through without damage!

I honestly think that folks expect way too much from lead bullets. You really have to be careful with smokeless loads and lead or you will most definitely get bullet fragments in the bore that will cause obstructions. Gas checks help but jacketed rounds are much safer. Antiques should never see that kind of pressure and won’t if original powder loads are used!

Murph

After a few initial trials with smokeless in 44-40 and 45-70 I could see no benefit to going any further. I have access to and shoot more black powder in just about everything outside of obvious cartridges like 9mm, .40, .45 ACP/AR, .223, etc. I am currently in an open ended argument with a shooting buddy as to whether or not I can shoot black powder through my 38-55 better than I could shoot smokeless. I find that difficult to believe unless I choose to take his bait and go to the effort of finding out. My answer is basically why when black powder does so well, his reply is "Well you'll never now unless you try."

glowe said:

I collect documented S&W failures, but have none for the 32-20 so would love to have your information to add to my notes.

Click to expand...

Rifling worn away, and stretched Frames being suggested by over large Cylinder to Forcing Cone gaps.

As for the comment that Trail Boss "might be alright", I do and will state that what I load is significantly less pressure and absolutely less stress on these old guns than original black powder!!! I will never understand why there is no understanding of the facts with regards to the old wives tales that are passed on for over a hundred years without without merit of facts or documentation!

Click to expand...

Yes, Trailboss might be alright.


I did not relay any "Old Wives Tales"...

Nor do I subscribe to any.

I had said I myself stay with Black Powder for any Black Powder era Revolvers I happen to load for.

Standard literature of the era and references today is that black powder loadings runs at 22,000psi in rifles and 14,000psi in handguns. That would make my Trail Boss loads over 35% under stated original BP ammo available in the late 1800s. I can and will state that full power BP loadings actually are much harder on the 44 DA than Trail Boss. So before you load and shoot your revolver, get the facts, do the research, but the answer is obvious.

Click to expand...

No one was referencing or discussing "your" Loads.

I had suggested the OP refer to Loading Tables for Trailboss and to distinguish Loadings for Rifle, from those for Revolver.

I do not use Trailboss to be able to positively state first hand about it's use...or what Loadings of it, would suit the Arm in question.

So my sense of it was and is, "Trailboss might be alright"...and for the OP to go review Loading Tables for it, with the appreciation in mind, that the Arm in question is not a modern reproduction Revolver, nor a Rifle.

BMur said:

Yeah,
That’s amazing! Bulging a 32-20 barrel? Even 32-20 antiques have a lot of metal thickness. I’ve seen just about every caliber antique pistol with a bulged barrel except the 32-20.
Every bulge has been attributed to “ obstruction” of some sort. Long list there! Even hollow based bullets are documented as separating and leaving a ring of lead in the barrel. I’ve actually seen that occur from poor lead casting? Even the core of a large caliber pistol lead bullet separating in the bore. Almost like gutting it? And leaving a chunk of lead in the bore. Happened to me once with my 45 Auto-rim S&W revolver. I got lucky because part of the bullet fragmented and jammed the cylinder at the forcing cone, or I would have sent another round down the tube. Funny thing is the recoil of the failed round felt normal! That really is one of the major reasons why I stick with black powder with antique pistols is obstruction. Black powder will not spike with obstruction. It will continue to build pressure normally . I’m not saying black powder can’t bulge a barrel! It definitely can but the obstruction must be significant! Like a stuck bullet! Smokeless can bulge a barrel from a minor obstruction or excessive residue, grease, run up case, etc. black powder will normally push that through without damage!

I honestly think that folks expect way too much from lead bullets. You really have to be careful with smokeless loads and lead or you will most definitely get bullet fragments in the bore that will cause obstructions. Gas checks help but jacketed rounds are much safer. Antiques should never see that kind of pressure and won’t if original powder loads are used!

Murph

Click to expand...

The instances I had come across were mostly prematurely worn out bores, and stretched Frames, from using modern Rifle .32-20 in early 20th Century S & W .32-20 Revolvers.

I have personally seen quite a few bulged Barrel 32-20 S&W K Frames and Colt 'PPS's, which I did took to have been from obstructions occasioned by the lodged Bullet of a "Squib" Load not being cleared prior to firing the next round.

I have seen more bulged Barrel .32-20 K Frames and .32-20 Colt Police Positive Specials, than I have seen bulged Barrel anything else ( Gunshows, Gunbroker )...why this would be? Who knows...sloppy Home Loads I guess!

Jim Watson said:

At one time there were a lot of bulged .32-20 barrels reported in print and www. There were various theories, some pretty outlandish. Are there any new ones?

Click to expand...

The only thing I know of which would do that is someone firing on top of an un-cleared Lodged Bullet from a "Squib" round...with the following shot possibly being a 'Rifle' Round.

It is hard to imagine that standard .32-20 Revolver Rounds would do this, but, who knows, maybe they could.

I have also seen older S & W Revolver Barrels with six perfectly nesting 32-20 or 38 Special Bullets lodged in the Barrel, one right into the other, with no bulges, and milled out from the side neatly so one could see them.

I have not tried this myself though...Lol..

Oyeboteb said:

The instances I had come across were mostly prematurely worn out bores, and stretched Frames, from using modern Rifle .32-20 in early 20th Century S & W .32-20 Revolvers.

Click to expand...

Does "modern rifle" mean current production at 1210 fps rifle; the 1975 listing of 1350 fps rifle, 1010 pistol (yeah, right) or the hot stuff 1850 fps rifle which seems to have dropped out of production around 1960, although we are daily warned against it?

I have personally seen quite a few bulged Barrel 32-20 S&W K Frames and Colt 'PPS's, which I did took to have been from obstructions occasioned by the lodged Bullet of a "Squib" Load not being cleared prior to firing the next round.

I have seen more bulged Barrel .32-20 K Frames and .32-20 Colt Police Positive Specials, than I have seen bulged Barrel anything else ( Gunshows, Gunbroker )...why this would be? Who knows...sloppy Home Loads I guess!

Click to expand...

But why so prevalent in .32-20? The wildest theory I know is that one of the HV Rifle Only loads has such slow burning powder that pressure bleeds off at the revolver cylinder gap and the bullet just runs out of gas. I don't credit it, but I did read it on the internet.

Smokeless loads

Kinman,
I can't imagine why you would even think about working up a Smokeless load if you have those kind of shot placements? Why bother?

These rifle cartridges in a pistol honestly present a significant problem no matter what you are using. Just not a lot of versatility in the rifle casing. Even the 32-20 could be loaded way too hot for a pistol with smokeless powder and lead bullets. Any modern 32-20 pistol in my opinion if you are going to exceed 1000fps? You need a jacketed round or you risk bullet separation and heavy leading in the bore. You don't have that problem with Antiques and black powder.


Here is a photo of the bullet or what's left of it from my Smith & Wesson 45 Auto-Rim revolver. These were reloads of 235 grain Semi-Wad cutters loaded with 4 grains of Bullseye powder with soft lube and roll crimp. Standard large pistol primers from Remington. I had probably shot 30+ rounds prior to this happening. From my range log they chrono'd at 825FPS.
Also, I didn't cast these bullets. I bought them at a gun show...That's the last time I've ever purchased loose lead. I either cast my own or buy known and proven products in "full unopened boxes".

Notice that the core blew out? almost like a funnel? I was amazed by what I saw and kept what was left of the bullet once I punched it out of the bore at home.

I'm sure that the 32-20 can be loaded very hot in a pistol and typically hand loaders do so. Any obstruction could cause a bulge....So in the case of the 32-20? I'd put money on bullet separation from too hot a load using too soft a lead bullet. The hot round that followed had no place to go.


Murph

Oyeboteb said:

The instances I had come across were mostly prematurely worn out bores, and stretched Frames, from using modern Rifle .32-20 in early 20th Century S & W .32-20 Revolvers.

I have personally seen quite a few bulged Barrel 32-20 S&W K Frames and Colt 'PPS's, which I did took to have been from obstructions occasioned by the lodged Bullet of a "Squib" Load not being cleared prior to firing the next round.

I have seen more bulged Barrel .32-20 K Frames and .32-20 Colt Police Positive Specials, than I have seen bulged Barrel anything else ( Gunshows, Gunbroker )...why this would be? Who knows...sloppy Home Loads I guess!

Click to expand...

Here is an excerpt from the Mike Venturino article on Trail Boss, that I linked to above (emphasis added on "factory loads"):

Anyone who has spent much time reloading large-volume handgun cases knows that smokeless powder orientation in the case at time of firing can be the culprit in ballistic variance. Here’s an especially noteworthy example considering factory ammunition for a caliber as small as .32-20: When friend Hank Williams Jr. visited some years back he brought with him a box of factory loads with 100-grain lead bullets and a Colt SAA .32-20 revolver. He loaded it with three rounds, handed it to me and said, “First shoot it uphill.” That’s safe to do at my place, so I did. The muzzle report was the customary loud blast of a .32-20 revolver. Next he said, “Shoot it level.” I did and the muzzle blast had a muffled sound more like a small bore shotgun. Last, it was aimed at the ground as if I was going to shoot a rattlesnake a few feet away. When I did the report sounded like pizzz. The bullet stopped a few inches into the Colt’s barrel with a clump of unburned powder behind it.

To say I was dumbfounded is an understatement, so I insisted we try it again in a different revolver. The same thing happened – and it happened every single time we continued the process. So something else handloaders benefit from with the use of Trail Boss, this most “fluffy” of all pistol powders, is ballistic uniformity.

OK...I'll admit that when I got my first 32-20 S&W I did fool around with some smokeless loads, I wasn't happy with just enjoying it with 100gr. lead either. I tried some 85gr. Hornady hollow points and pushed them a little over 800fps and was happy with the accuracy in my Winchester '92 and continued to load them a bit hotter for that rifle, staying with lead in the Smiths and keeping speeds down.
Thank you, I feel his argument falls on deaf ears from every direction. My black powder friends understand, the smokeless guys ain't got the same soul.

Tom K said:

Here is an excerpt from the Mike Venturino article on Trail Boss, that I linked to above (emphasis added on "factory loads"):

Anyone who has spent much time reloading large-volume handgun cases knows that smokeless powder orientation in the case at time of firing can be the culprit in ballistic variance. Here’s an especially noteworthy example considering factory ammunition for a caliber as small as .32-20: When friend Hank Williams Jr. visited some years back he brought with him a box of factory loads with 100-grain lead bullets and a Colt SAA .32-20 revolver. He loaded it with three rounds, handed it to me and said, “First shoot it uphill.” That’s safe to do at my place, so I did. The muzzle report was the customary loud blast of a .32-20 revolver. Next he said, “Shoot it level.” I did and the muzzle blast had a muffled sound more like a small bore shotgun. Last, it was aimed at the ground as if I was going to shoot a rattlesnake a few feet away. When I did the report sounded like pizzz. The bullet stopped a few inches into the Colt’s barrel with a clump of unburned powder behind it.

To say I was dumbfounded is an understatement, so I insisted we try it again in a different revolver. The same thing happened – and it happened every single time we continued the process. So something else handloaders benefit from with the use of Trail Boss, this most “fluffy” of all pistol powders, is ballistic uniformity.

Click to expand...

I feel bad that it may be my fault that .44-40 'Loading' related thoughts ended up drifting in to .32-20 'Loading' thoughts!! Lol...

What they have in common of course, and how this got going, is that they both began as Rifle Cartridges, which soon on got chambered as Revolver Cartridges also - and, when this duality was still in the Black Powder era, and Lead Bullets, it was Mox Nix...no misadventure was probable or known to occur...( other than maybe firing on top of a "Squib" ).

But with the advent of various 'Smokeless', and Semi-Jacketed Bullets, and "High Velocity Rifle" Cartridges in these Cartridges, leaving BP era Revolvers in a new situation, things were not so simple anymore.

Long Cartridge Cases can indeed have odd things go on, when being used with small amounts of Smokeless...just as you relay! - depending on if the Arm is pointed decidedly "up", or level, or pointed "Down"...or point UP, tap soundly, then gently to 'level' as some people suggest one do.

'Trailboss' indeed sounds like a fine Propellant option for the old Hand Guns.

But I myself for having stayed with Black Powder for my various BP era Revolvers, have no personal experience with it, nor testimony about it, to speak of it first-hand.