Schofields at "THE LITTLE BIG HORN"????

BMur · Oct 6, 2021

OK,
Show of hands, "How many collectors out there actually knew that the Schofield revolver was used at the Little Big Horn"?

Cricket, Cricket , Cricket.....

I had no idea....Sure, I've read that it was "POSSIBLY" used, "MAY HAVE BEEN" used... "Small probability" it was used.....but apparently there is one at the Smithsonian that was picked up off the ground....."loaded of course"....at the Little Big Horn in 1883.

This changes everything for my research of the Schofield revolver and the multi-purpose round that was manufactured at the Frankford Arsenal for both the Colt's 45 and the Schofield revolver.

I was looking at some relic's that were picked up at the Little Big Horn and some of those cartridges and bullets sure look like that "multi-purpose" 45 round manufactured at the Frankford Arsenal.

You know the one? The one you can't hit a barn door with at 30 feet from the Colt's revolver?

Murph

sigp220.45 · Oct 6, 2021

Very interesting!

What is the provenance? Who found it and where has it been since 1883? Was there a Smithsonian expedition to the battlefield in 1883, or did someone give it to them?

Where on the battlefield was it found? How can anyone know when it was dropped there? Maybe a battlefield scavanger dropped it. Or maybe it was found somewhere else and a canny fella decided to turn a rusty relic into a valuable artifact.

It should be a fascinating thing to research, for sure.

BMur · Oct 6, 2021

Detailed information

Lot's of great questions,

I guess it's been posted since 2010...How I missed it is beyond me... I guess I wasn't using the correct wording in my searches. The Smithsonian has had it for at least that long. Likely much longer I guess.

Since I only just found it today I thought I'd share with the forum. I do plan on emailing the Smithsonian and bugging them until they answer me...The primary question is the provenance but honestly, the 1883 date is a good thing since there were many early expeditions to the site and several guns have been recorded in those expeditions.

Where this gun has been? I have no idea. Who found it? and all the rest of your questions.

A more appropriate question would be: Why hasn't anyone else listed this gun?? I mean I can spout about a dozen sources that make general references to the Schofield as "Possibly" being at the Little Big Horn but NONE of them reference this gun!! Opps!

This is what typically happens when we "Hero Worship" people and refuse to do our own homework. Copy other people's research, over and over again.

Sometimes the "HERO's" miss the boat.

Murph

BMur · Oct 6, 2021

Source

It's late and I'm tired but I did find that the Smithsonian lists the "Source" of the find as Major Charles E. Bendire.

You can read about him if you search his name. A long Military career and was often sent to remote locations during the Indian Wars....I'd say he is a pretty reliable source. He died at the age of 60 in 1886. Three years after this gun was apparently found. As an experienced researcher, I'm feeling pretty good about this one.

When documents are proven to be "close" to the time of the event and drawn up or testified by people who were actually there? They tend to be correct. It's those that are found many years and many yarns later that are "ALWAYS" suspect.

This man was there!

Murph

Jaco1234 · Oct 7, 2021

This is very interesting.
Can you post some of your links?

shil · Oct 7, 2021

The last I read of the battle that's germane here was that revolver cartridge cases found at the site were of the "long" kind, indicating the 1873 Colt. Supposedly close examination revealed they came from multiple revolvers. The "Schofield", of course, used a shorter round. How likely would it have been for both types of ammunition to have been issued to the same unit?

LostintheOzone · Oct 7, 2021

Lots of forensic research has been done on bullets recovered on the site. Most of the weapons that were used there didn't remain there after battle. Just the bullets and cases. If a Schofield was used there I'm sure there were bullets recovered that would indicate that type of revolver was actually used.

Several rifles have been authenticated as being used during the battle using forensics.

If the Smithsonian says it was there, my guess is it was.

Kinman · Oct 7, 2021

Interesting...Why wouldn't at least one have been there? Someone may have taken a liking to it over the Colt, much in the way some of us prefer a revolver to a pistol. I do understand the lack of available ammunition that carrying and depending on a firearm for your personal safety that using a Schofield would have incurred...but if one had an adequate personal supply and limited use of a sidearm for defense I could understand. I've never been personally enamored with the 1873 Colt SAA, doesn't fit my big hands as well as the Schofield. A Bisley fits much better but its availability was more sketchy. I like the Schofield and likely prefer one to the 1973, not tried and true...I've never tried to wear one out but have shot my Uberti quite a bit and find it very useable especially with handloaded ammunition.

SF VET · Oct 7, 2021

Some years ago, several authoritative book were published, after a ground fire on that prairie revealed a wealth of hitherto unseen items from the war. So a forensic exhaustive search with metal detectors was done, about mid '80's as I recall, and fascinating details on the deaths and weapons and who used them in the books "Archeology of the Battle of the Little Bighorn."

Pretty poignant, esp the finger bone found with a wedding ring on it. NV

jimmyj · Oct 7, 2021

IIRC (?) some of the Officers purchased their personal ammo as they liked ammo with brass cases more then the issue copper cases

zulu 1952 · Oct 7, 2021

It is hard for me to imagine a "loaded" gun found there. You would think that anyone involved in the fight there would be firing as fast as they could.

BMur · Oct 7, 2021

More info

Evidently it was only the U.S. Army that revisited the site for several years after the battle. Pretty gruesome reading regarding the veterans bodies and bones scattered all over for literally years! Horrible! Buried in a mass grave, buried again in July 1877 and then finally dug up and reburied in 1881 at various locations.

We know from Army issuance records that Schofields were first issued in 1876. Over 800 that year alone. The Battle took place in June of that year. Artifacts found and clearly documented not only proved that the “ Dual Purpose” 45 cal round designed for both the Schofield and the Colt was there but you can see( in my opinion) Schofield “ Wide” rifling signature on the lead bullet.
( Photo 1 is a documented artifact) clearly a hollow based 45 cal. Pistol bullet.
Photo 2 are circa 1884 45 cal dug up “ Dual purpose” rounds that are Identical to the one documented at the little Big horn but have Colt 45 rifling(narrow lands). The early Colt 45 Arsenal round was a different design that did NOT require a hollow base bullet!

This is what got me started on proving that Schofields were there.

Remember, this would be the first year of issuance for the Schofield so there were definitely early arsenal made 45 Colt rounds there as well.

There are also short cases documented that fit the dual purpose Bennett primed rounds of that time as well. Pretty rock solid stuff.

Murph

Velle · Oct 7, 2021

zulu 1952 said:
It is hard for me to imagine a "loaded" gun found there. You would think that anyone involved in the fight there would be firing as fast as they could.

Or they were killed as soon as it was loaded. If a Schofield was there it was either an officers gun or an Indians gun. Troopers were issued Colt's. Custer himself carried a pair of Webley Bulldogs.

Birdhunter6 · Oct 7, 2021

About the forensic testing mentioned above: When I visited the Rock Island Arsenal Museum in Rock Island IL several years ago, they had a very interesting Little Bighorn display. It consisted of firearms, mostly long guns used at the battle.

I recall reading that after a modern day wild fire lots of fired cases were recovered and their locations documented.

The Armory has been a U.S. army collection point for captured, obsolete, experimental and surplus arms since 1832.

Ballistic testing matched some of those fired cases to firearms in the museum collection. Those arms were mostly captured from or turned in by surrendering warriors long after the battle. The exhibit included a battlefield map showing the locations where each arm had been used. A 45-70 Trapdoor carbine confirmed to have been used in 2 separate locations was believed to have been fired by the cavalry early in the battle, captured and then used against them later. Not surprising, but very interesting.

I don't know if the exhibit is still on display. According to the internet the museum is temporarily closed due to Covid concerns. When it reopens it is well worth worth an afternoon. (Open 12-4)

Though not included in the Little Bighorn display, they do have a Schofield and examples of every other firearm you can imagine ever used by or against the U.S. army. There is also a Civil War cemetery on Rock Island.

The Museum is on the Grounds of a Federal Arsenal on an island in the Mississippi so access involves a few complications but is well worth the trouble if you are interested military or firearms history.

cmj8591 · Oct 7, 2021

I read in "Son Of The Morning Star" by Evan Connell that Custer actually had a Webley revolver at the Little Big Horn. I remember that it was supposed to be the RIC model chambered in .442. Of course they didn't recover one from the battlefield so it is based on the fact that he had one when he was at Ft. Lincoln before he left and it wasn't among the guns he left behind after the battle. I'm not sure that would be my first choice for a gun to deal with a couple of thousand angry warriors.

Birdhunter6 · Oct 7, 2021

SF VET said:
Some years ago, several authoritative book were published, after a ground fire on that prairie revealed a wealth of hitherto unseen items from the war. So a forensic exhaustive search with metal detectors was done, about mid '80's as I recall, and fascinating details on the deaths and weapons and who used them in the books "Archeology of the Battle of the Little Bighorn."

Pretty poignant, esp the finger bone found with a wedding ring on it. NV

Thanks for the book reference SF VET.

You posted while I was typing. I will check the book out. It will give me far more detailed information than my faulty 'old man memory' of that museum display.

LostintheOzone · Oct 7, 2021

Custer wore an Arrow shirt also.

I just had to throw that in there.

Giorgio Italy · Oct 7, 2021

Hi everybody

I think everything that could be found in the field, 35 years ago, has been found and is described in this exceptional book. Unfortunately, no ball or case can be traced back to a Schofield.

From what appears in the inventories of the 7th, there were no Schofields assigned to any Company. This does not mean that some officers may have had one, bought privately. Since among the cartridges supplied there were also "short ones".

Of course it is well known that the 7th, and not only, in June 1876 (about two years after the stop to production) still used the .45 "long" (as well as the "short one").

Giorgio

BMur · Oct 7, 2021

Schofield Research?

From What I have read and researched, there has been a “huge” amount of research performed on the Colt’s 45 and the 7th Cavalry.

However, I’m not aware of any studies performed on the Schofield issuance except for general reference only.

To say that there is NO Listing for the Schofields being issued to the 7th Cavalry means you have a specific reference that lists where the 800 plus Schofields actually went in 1876.

Where “exactly “ did they go? Who or what Company “exactly” was issued those 800+ U.S. Schofields in 1876?

If you can’t answer that question then “ You cannot confirm that the 7th didn’t have them!

800+ is a pretty big number in 1876!

Referencing Colts issued is NOT referencing Schofields!

I’m saying they were there! Maybe not in huge numbers? But a lot more than 1!

Also, you have to have an open mind but also a very critical mind with modern expeditions. From a research standpoint? Casings found in the 1980’s? That’s 100+ years after the battle? Honestly, how accurate is that going to be?

Murph

John in AK · Oct 7, 2021

Frankford Arsenal .45 Revolver Cartridges

Interestingly, a bit of InterWebs magic reveals that the first contract for Schofields was actually tendered in July of 1874 with first deliveries late that year or early in 1875, and the Frankford Arsenal production of the .45 Government Revolver cartridges that would fit either the Colt or the Schofield started in early 1875--which makes it very possible for either or both to have seen service of some sort in June 1876.

The rusty relic is clearly a 1st Model, one of the first 3000; The probability that an officer might have possessed an early-production revolver is good, considering that the guns were, at first, considered to be too complicated to issue to just any trooper.

You just might be ON to something.

Schofields at "THE LITTLE BIG HORN"????

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