Schofields at "THE LITTLE BIG HORN"????

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi

Evidently the excavations of the 80s of the 1900s could only be an overview of what had remained on the ground 110 years after the battle. Nothing more! Despite this, very interesting data have emerged. After all, we know that in archaeology finds can say a lot but not everything!

On the presence of one or more Schofields on the field there is no certain evidence, just as there can be no counter evidence! But with the research systems of the 80s, and with the scanning microscope, the boys of the University of Oklahoma determined that no 230 grs cal .45 balls and no "short" cases had been fired by a Schofield.

The footprints of the barrel grooves on the bullets and the striker's imprint on the cases, belonged to the Colt Army. Of course, there is still little to establish with certainty that no Schofield was present!

The inventories are published in Dusan P Farrington's volume: "Arming & Equipping the United States Cavalry 1865-1902" A. Mowbray Pub. 2004.

In the 1st Quarter of 1876, there were 749 Schofields assigned to the 4th, 9th and 10th U.S. Cavalry.
At the 4th Quarter of 1875 there were 849 of them - out of 15 Companies (same Regiments).
In the 3rd Quarter of 1875 there were 579 out of 12 Companies, 9th and 10th Reg.
In the 2nd Quarter of 1875 there were 140 out of 3 companies (one of the 9th and two of the 10th).

Let's also admit that the author has published only excerpts but if the 7th had Schofield assigned I think he would not have forgotten them.

In the years 1875-76 the 9th and 10th Regs were in Texas and New Mexico. The 4th Reg instead - which alone had in the 1st Quarter of 1876 a total of 508 Schofield - was stationed at Fort Sill, Indian Territory.

I believe that these are data on which one can reason!

The data are taken from the quarterly "Summary of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores in the hands of Troops in the service of the United States".

From other documents, which are not inventories but various communications and letters, it can be deduced that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 8th Reg. also had supplies from Schofield. Nothing about the 7th. Which, in fact, would seem strange!

Personally I think that testimonies are often completely unreliable, especially if they are unrelated to period documents.

Giorgio

 

[shil]

Custer wore an Arrow shirt also.

I just had to throw that in there.

........ and the Sioux warriors were armed with bows and Van Heusens!

You started it.

 

[Heinz]

I have been to the Little Bighorn Battlefield, back before the 1983 fire. It is clear that some very bad decisions were made by the Seventh Cavalry

Officers at that time seem to have an affectation for non-standard equipment. Hats, scarves, jackets were often not GI. There are photographs with S&W 32s and Bowie knives. Custer owned a pair of Webley Royal Irish Constabulary model pistols, one of Benteen's officers brought a long range Sharps. Enlisted folk were poorly paid, and subject to an erratic Officer corps. They probably only had what the US issued.

 

[NavySCPO]

I can't speak to anything that happened at the Little Big Horn, but, as to why some artifacts have not been found, or were found late…

The sub-division I live in is named Old Camp Woods, history confirms this site was a well known Confederate Training Camp during the war.

While my detector hasn't (yet) located any bullets or other armory items, I have found what appear to be old wagon parts and possibly blacksmith tool items. Were they from that time period? I don't know, likely never will, but, they were found 18-24" or more deep, indicating they've been there for some time. So far everything has been found on the back rise, or across the street near the creek, both likely camp locations.

My point is, here we are more than 150 years after the war ended, and artifacts are still being found.

The first photo shows the rise back of my home, where most were located.

The 2nd photo is another theory finally confirmed, and probably has as much validity as my own theory.

 

[BMur]

Indian campaign

Giorgio,
Great info. I'm going to get a copy of that book.
Reviewing the Indian campaign during a single year (1876) it seems that many thousands both Indians and Troopers stomped on that ground both before and after the battle.
General Crooks column alone was initially made up of 800 both infantry and 2nd Cavalry.
His second Column was over 1100 men. 10 full companies! 86 wagons, a pack train of 5 divisions that included 80 mules in each Division!
So that battlefield was trampled over many many times in 1876 alone!!!
How many artifacts were actually dropped by these huge columns? I'd say a lot!

Then there were smaller detachments sent later from;
Fort Fetterman
Fort Laramie
Fort Ellis
Fort Shaw
Fort Lincoln

So it seems that the battlefield was very often visited by the U.S.Army during that time. Any relics found on site could therefore be questioned as to their true origin. Who actually dropped it there and when?

It seems obvious to me that with the volume of troops and forts and columns? Schofields were definitely there! The only real question is when?


See map photo

Murph

 

[ol777gunnerz]

info

Items being found after the big prairie fire, I assume, would include numerous empty cartridges, etc. from numerous re-enactmants, etc. on the site before the fire.

 

[gunbarrel]

FWIW, this one is at the site museum. You can read what it says.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

For those that can't read the inscription, it says the S&W is a 1st Model American that was left at Fort Abraham Lincoln with the wife of the owner and was not used in the battle.

 

[gunbarrel]

Thank you, Guy.

Some of you may be familiar with Mike Venturino. Mr. Venturino is an expert on firearms from the Old West, and living in Montana, he's done a lot of research on weapons and cartridges used in the Battle of Little Big Horn.

He says that while the Colt SAA revolver was introduced in .45 Colt caliber, in August 1874, the U.S. Army directed the government's Frankford Arsenal to produce *only* the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge, which they did for the next 18 years. Therefore, most cavalry units carried the shorter .45 S&W round in their Colt SAA revolver.

But, here is the kicker: modern archaeology has shown that Custer's 7th Cavalrymen used the longer cartridges at the Little Bighorn. Go figure!

 

[gmborkovic]

How long after the battle did US troopers show up at the battlefield?

 

[cmj8591]

How long after the battle did US troopers show up at the battlefield?

About two days. Custer's orders were to find the main group of Indians and wait for Gen Terry and the infantry to arrive before engaging. Custer obviously didn't obey that order. He was worried that the group of Indians would disperse if he waited. He also grossly misjudged the size and composition of the group. Reno and Benteen were split off and Reno was to attack the village from the opposite side from Custer. Benteen was behind both of them. Reno got bogged down and ended up withdrawing to the woods behind the village. Eventually, the Indians started to overrun him and he retreated at a run to Benteen's position. He lost about half of his command and was court marshaled. Reno and Benteen and the pack train that had arrives at this point, dug in on a hill where they stayed until Terry arrived. They knew Custer was fighting because they could hear it but they were out of sight of him and had no idea of the outcome of the battle until Terry arrived on the 27th. (The Custer battle was on the 25th) They tried to communicate with Custer but the company sent out ran into an overwhelming number of Sioux and had to retreat back to the defensive position.

 

[junglefighter]

This is an excellent post. So full of interesting information. Please continue as long as possible. Thank all of you.

 

[Heinz]

Reno and Benteen fought a defensive battle on June 26th. They dug some trenches and piled up the packs from the pack train. There are reports of some use of a long range Sharps belonging to one of the officers or scouts to keep the Sioux and Cheyenne scouts at a distance. The Indian forces began departing on the morning of June 27th when news of Terry's arrival reached them.

Terry's troops buried Custer's dead in shallow graves where they fell. Terry was apprehensive of a possible attack on his force.

Custer was offered the use of one (maybe two) Gatling guns. He refused because he thought they would slow his advance.

The battlefield was not a popular spot for picnicking among the graves.

 

[BMur]

Simple numbers

There are so many accounts of the battle that your head will spin reading them all.

If we follow the simplicity of the math? They were over run.

250 Cavalry against between 1500-2500 braves armed with as much as between 25%- 50% having repeating rifles actually "Given to them " by government Indian agents? Gee, I wonder if Custer was set up?

Try to imagine a minimum of 500 repeaters sending volley after volley. That's not including what the rest of the braves were carrying.

How well would anyone do in a 10-1 battle? One can analyzed all they want but Grossly outnumbered is what I'd call it.

66 Winchester's and Henry rifles were AK-47's of that ERA!

Murph

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Regarding what has been written in previous posts about the 1983-85 post-fire excavations, I think it is obvious to say that it would be difficult to rewrite history only with those finds, but it must be given credit to the University of Oklahoma for the great work done. In fact, those researches produced not one but three books! In addition to the one mentioned above also: "Archaeological Insights into the Custer Battle - an Assessement of the 1984 Field Season; D. D. Scott, R. A. Fox Jr. with D. Harmon" in addition "Archaeology, History" and "Custer's Last Battle - R. A. Fox Jr. with W. R. Wood"
Of course, since the researchers were not naïve, they divided appropriately the pre '76 finds from everything that fell on the ground after the battle. It's even impressive what they found on the ground in terms of post-'76 ammunition. And it seems to me that this shows how you Americans have no problem shooting with what happens even near a national monument!
238 artifacts were found including cartridges, cartridge cases and balls that had nothing to do with the 7th or the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors. These include about fifty .45/70 shells of commercial origin marked R-P and W-W and of military production after 1880. Three commercial .30/06 shells R-P, W-W Super and Remington UMC over six military blanks found near the National Cemetery. And then shells and balls: .222 Rem; .243 Win; .250/300 Savage; .25/20; .30/30; .30/40 Krag; .32 WCF; .38 S&W; .38 Special; .38 Colt; .38/55; .38/56; .44/40; .45 Auto rim; .45 Colt. About fifteen cartridge cases in sizes 10, 12, 16, 20 and 410.
Giorgio

 

[cmj8591]

If we follow the simplicity of the math? They were over run.

Had Custer waited for Terry and Gibbons like he was supposed to do, there would have been a large force of about 1000 troops to oppose the Indians. You can make a argument that there probably wouldn't have been a battle and the Sioux would have either evaporated in front of it or would have negotiated a return to the agency. Of course that's conjecture. Hubris made Custer what he was but, in the end, it was the death of him. There were 24 Medals of Honor awarded at the Little Big Horn. Most went to members of Reno's Battalion who went to retrieve water during the siege after Custer's battle.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi all

Another book would seem to confirm that the 7th had no supplies of Schofield revolvers. At least not until the first quarter of 1876.

The first quarter is of course the reference period. Anything provided after March 31, 1876 fatally did not participate in Terry's Column expedition from (I believe) Fort Lincoln.

These photos relate to the Regiment's inventory for the first quarter of the year. Although they are very faded it is noted that under the heading "Pistols" the following weapons are listed: Remington .44; Smith & Wesson .44; Colt .44; Remington (Rolling Block); the penultimate entry is illegible and finally Schofield Smith & Wesson cal .45.

The only models present are 639 Colt Army Cal .45 and 3 Remington Single Barrel. Under the Schofield column (added by hand) there is nothing.


But if they didn't have Supplies of Schofield (a new weapon!) why this manual addition? Mystery!


Giorgio

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Throughout the text the Schofields are mentioned only twice, when the author refers to subsequent seizures (one seizure is from 1877) of Indian weapons. Of course, the origin is not known.
I realize it's not much but... it's something!

G.

 

[frankynohankypanky]

There is a five page article, written by Charles Pate, about the Smithsonian revolver in the Jan/Feb, 1988 issue of Man at Arms magazine.

Frank S.

 

[BMur]

Man at Arms

Can you please give us an overview of what it says?

Thanks,


Murph