Military & Police Model 1905 4th Change questions

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lbpd16

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Hello to everyone. This is my first post and it seems there are several about the M&P 1905 4th, however I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for. First some background and details about the revolver. About a year ago I got the letter from Mr. Jinks giving me some details about my revolver. He told me that the serial # 258XXX shows it shipped from S&W in Oct 1916, with 5 inch barrel, nickel finish, and walnut/checkered/gold medallion grips. I got it from my grandfather about 20 years ago and the finish was flaking and it was rusting in spots. The left side of the barrel has "SMITH & WESSON" on it. The right side of the barrel has ""38 S&W SPECIAL CTG" on it. At the time I got it I was ignorant and poor and I had it parkerized :eek:. Now I am looking to get it re nickeled. I have seen photos of the M&P 1905 4th and it seems maybe 2 things are missing from mine. I do not see the S&W logo on the right or left side and I do not see "MADE IN USA" on the right side as I have seen in some photos. Also, the only serial number on the gun is on the back side of the ejector star. The guy that will do the work for me has offered to do some engraving to make it look original. So I'm looking for some input as to what may be missing and where it should be. I believe that the logo, "Made in USA", and butt serial number may have been covered up by the parkerizing. Sorry for the long post. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
 
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The Made in USA stamping did not start until about 1923. It's your revolver, but I would definitely not recommend spending any money on it. Your cash would be far more wisely spent on a gun in much better condition. They are not that difficult to find. The lack of a SN on the butt can create significant legal problems.
 
Welcome to the Forum. There seems to be a few inconsistencies with your grandfather's S&W Model 1905, when it comes to serial numbers. Can you post some pictures of the places there should be a serial number stamped? (Bottom of the barrel, rear of the cylinder, each side of the grip frame under the grips and the butt.) What are the patent dates stamped on the barrel? No "Made in USA" stamping is correct, as said above. Missing S&W logo stampings is not unusual for some guns, especially ones made in the hurry up of wartime production. Ed.
 
Sorry it took me a couple days to get back to the forum. Here are a few pics. All markings on the gun are shown.

P1000203.jpg


P1000202.jpg


P1000201.jpg


P1000200.jpg


P1000199.jpg


P1000197.jpg


P1000194.jpg


P1000191.jpg


P1000190.jpg


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IMG_2550.jpg


Here is the text from my LOA from S&W:

The revolver you inquired about is the .38 Military & Police Model. This model was introduced
in 1899 and designed to fire the .38 S&W Special cartridge. It has been in continued production
since it was originally introduced. However, during the past years, many design changes have
been made to this model to improve the revolver's function. The collector has classified all of the
improvements which occurred before 1945.
Your revolver is classified as the .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change. This
modification occurred in 1915 and was produced until 1942 with a total production of 758,297
revolvers. These revolvers were produced between serial numbers 241704 and 1000000 of the
.38 Hand Ejector series. The current production model of this series is known as the Model 10.
We have researched your Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change,
caliber .38 S&W Special, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with
serial number 258341 was shipped from our factory on October 15, 1916, and delivered to A. J.
Anderson Co., Fort Worth, TX. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 5 inch
barrel, nickel finish, and checkered walnut gold medallion grips. Smith & Wesson cannot
refinish this revolver. It would be our recommendation to leave it as it is, because and further
work will harm it more than help it.

I can take more pics if you need me to. Thanks again
 
Overall, this appears to be a good shooter revolver. However, it has some issues.
The serial number seems to have been polished off in at least two locations - the butt and the rear face of the cylinder. This may make this gun illegal to own, even though the serial number still appears on the underside of the extractor star. It may still be on the barrel flat, which you did not exhibit in your photographs. The fact that the serial number no longer appears on the frame is the cause of the concern.
I'm not sure what kind of finish this is. It may be some type of hard chrome with a dull finish on it. Others may have a better idea. Whoever did it committed the common mistake of plating the trigger and hammer, which was never done by the factory. The pitting that shows up on the grip frame probably is the cause of the deep polishing that was done on the bottom of the grip frame, eliminating the serial number. There is some evidence that the cylinder face was pitted also, explaining the deep polishing at that location as well.
I'm not sure what to recommend, but I think you may have a serious legality issue on your hands.
Regards,
Jack
 
It's obvious the serial numbers on the cylinder and butt have been ground off at some time in the past. The barrel appears to be a 6 in. barrel, so it's a spare parts replacement, with no serial number, as the LOA says it was shipped as a 5 in. Apparently who ever removed the numbers didn't know about the number stamped on the back of the extractor. If it were my gun, I would restamp the serial number on the grip frame, or the butt. as the current condition could result in embarassing explanations to law enforcement. Ed.
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I did notice the barrel was not 5 inch as the LOA stated. So back to my original question. I see the "Made in USA" was addressed and was not on my gun. What about the S&W logo? I see that some guns just didn't get the logo. And seeing that all the other engraving other than serial numbers are still on the gun I will assume that there just wasn't a logo on it and that nothing was covered up by the parkerizing. Its a keeper for me and I don't plan to sell it as it was given to me by my grandpa. I still would like to get it re nickeled and will probably have the serial number on the ejector star stamped on the butt. I think it would look nice in a shadow box. It shoots fine too. To Jack, there is no number on the barrel flat either. I have looked at this thing a thousand times it seems in different lighting and with a magnifying glass and no luck. The finish is a 1996 parkerize job in matte. I rubbed it down with fine grit pad and now as you can see it looks almost like a stainless finish. Thanks again guys for the help.
 
Different or not, that's a neat looking old gun. If it was mine, I'd stamp the serial number on the butt and call it good. I don't think that restoring it to its original condition would be possible, at any price.
 
A final question about this gun. Since we now know the gun has a 6 inch barrel and according to S&W it shipped with a 5 inch, is it possible that the cylinder and ejector star were replaced on the gun and the serial number on the ejector star actually belongs to another gun and not mine??? The LOA from Smith & Wesson shows the gun being delivered to Ft. Worth. All my family is from New Orleans. Of course I know guns move around, the barrel swap just got me to thinking. Thanks again for all the input.
 
I learned on this forum that when S&W nickeled a revolver, originally or as a refinish, they did not plate the hammer, trigger which should be case colored and (I think) the extractor star which should be blued.


The sn may also be on the face of the yoke visible down through a charge hole with a flashlight or when disassembled.

Since S&W thinks that gun is sn xxxxxx then get it stamped on the butt ASAP both for authenticity and legality.
 
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