Model of 1905 Fixed Sight Target *Update - SFPD Gun!*

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Modified

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Update; Roy looked this up and Jean wrote this beautiful document for me that really makes this gun super neat in my opinion (also for me at least absolutely cements the fact that King did this job):




Those of you who know me know that this is catnip to me:



So when this gun came up, even with its obvious problems, I had to drop a couple hundred on it.

So I'm wondering a few things, feel free to speculate along with me.

No markings indicate a return to the factory under the stocks:








I'm going to need a couple screws it looks like. Near as I can tell the action is just fine, quite good in fact, so I'm not certain why the screws are missing. Aside from the general jalopy nature of the gun overall.



Fixed sight target, driftable? Factory? King? Military Armorer? None of mine are quite like this one, anyone recognize the work?



I have no idea what is going on with this hole that is filled in on the butt. It doesn't go through the frame. Can anyone enlighten me?



Interesting S/N? Or just a coincidence?



As you guys know I really have a deep abiding love for guns like this. Used, upgraded, loved, and skillfully worked on (for the most part). The mystery just makes them that much more fun, plus there's something very special to me about a gun that has been modified in ways that I personally like, making the gun something I would have happily had modified had I been kicking around in the early part of the 20th century. With the round butt and the excellent sights I can sure see this as being a favored carry gun of someone for many many decades.

Can anyone tell me anything about this gun that I am missing?
 
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No information or speculation, but I love the leather and the gun. Just can't put a price on cool!!!!!
 
The small side plate screw should not be a big problem,The top screw on the other hand will be pricey if you can find One.There is a seller on E-Bay who has them but I think they are re-pops.
 
The gun probably dates to 1907 and mixes features of the Models of 1902 and 1905. The patent dates on the barrel suggest it was manufactured at a time when it would have been expected to be threaded into the frame of a 1902/first change since the last patent date is in 1903. The round butt is also a marker for the 1902. But the presence of the trigger rebound slide (see the rear location of the trigger return stud on the left side) marks this as what has traditionally been called a Model of 1905/first change. The serial number lies within the range associated with that variety as well. The stocks are appropriate for a gun of that age -- dished tops, no medallions.

King Gun Sight Company didn't even exist until at least a couple of decades after this gun was produced, so what you see represents later alterations. How much later I don't know. Those drift-adjustable slot sights are found on S&Ws from time to time. Do I remember correctly that sights like those are Bisley compliant? That Bisley matches prohibited use of fully adjustable rear sights?

The grooved step and round depression behind the sight are unfamiliar features to me, though pictures have been posted in prior years of somewhat similar configurations with a threaded hole where the dip is in this one. That suggests to me some sort of attachment may have been possible. I wonder if this gun had a Wondersight on it at some point. That might explain the loss of the top sideplate screw. Of maybe both screws are missing because they stabilized a bar mount that held a different rear sight assembly in the seemingly unnecessary frame notch. Never underestimate the ingenuity of a gun owner with metal skills who wants to modify a firearm he had around the house.

No thoughts on the filled hole in the backstrap unless it was associated with retaining a larger set of target stocks or a homemade grip spacer that was attached to the back of the grip rather than the front.

Interesting revolver, and easily worth every buck you paid for it as well as several more that you didn't. I also am helpless in the face of revolver with the name 'KING" stamped on a sight. :D
 
Oh, may interest you. I think I have the second king catalog. Interestingly it seems king was doing business in 1914, in Denver.

Ill get some pictures of it.
 
Puzzled. Are you sure that's not a 1903 model .32 Long HE? Those patent dates don't normally appear on a K frame. Let's not count how many times I've been wrong though.
 
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Mike McLellan said:
Puzzled. Are you sure that's not a 1903 model .32 Long HE? Those patent dates don't normally appear on a K frame. Let's not count how many times I've been wrong though.
Click to expand...

Mike, you scared me for a moment. But in one of the photos you can see the caliber markings on the left side of the barrel; it has the .38 Special/U.S. Service CTG rollmark.

SixgunStrumpet said:
Oh, may interest you. I think I have the second king catalog. Interestingly it seems king was doing business in 1914, in Denver.

Ill get some pictures of it.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'd love to see them. I once traced King's operations back to the late '20s but not before. He must have been quite a bit older than I thought he was.

EDITED TO ADD: Wow, he is older. Born abt. 1870 in Colorado, living in Los Angeles in 1920 and employed as a Sales Manager for Remington Arms. In 1930 he is living in San Mateo and his profession is listed as "Gun Sights." He apparently died in 1945, which I either didn't know or had forgotten, and that means the litigation between King and Micro in the 1950s was waged between corporations rather than individuals (save that a number of former King employees who formed Micro are named as defendants in the King lawsuit). Live and learn.

King's history is now potentially way more interesting for me because I have an old TL target with a King blade on it. The sight is now perhaps much closer in time to the manufacture of the revolver than I had thought it was.
 
I took some quick pictures, the pamphlet is both really neat and a bit fragile. I love the gold leaf they put into it to show the gold on the sights. When I bought it the auction said it was the second catalog, but I'm not sure how they got that information.

What I can say is that the testimonials in this are dated 1914, so apparently he was making sights then, or before then. Guessing his sight business started properly about then given this catalog. I'd love to find one older, something to keep digging for. The Denver bit was a surprise to me, I had no idea about that.












Looks like he did work on revolvers early on too, given that testimonial there.



Also liked shooting bears it seems.


Being born around 1870 is really interesting. Who knows how much stuff he worked on personally before forming the company proper.
 
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Looks like he did rifle sights only in the early days. I wonder when he started on precision handgun sights.

Thanks for posting those images. I had no idea there were King catalogs from before WWI.
 
Nice find. That is about the ideal sight setup for a 38 Special. The work could have been done much later than when the revolver was shipped.
 
In my copy of 'Old Gunsights" by Nick Stroebel he states that Deane King started business in 1913 in Denver. The first gunsights were made by The Western Gunsight Co. ( later Redfield Gunsights ) of Denver. They were one of the earliest producers for King.Some of the early sights were made by Axel Peterson and George Schoyen who were both doing business in Denver. It goes on to say that King was unique among his competitors because he made an incredible array of beautifully crafted, innovatively designed pistol and revolver sights.
 
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DCWilson said:
Looks like he did rifle sights only in the early days. I wonder when he started on precision handgun sights.

Thanks for posting those images. I had no idea there were King catalogs from before WWI.
Click to expand...

Well he only cataloged rifle sights, but one of the testimonials dated 1915 mentions revolver sights, so I think King was doing them, just maybe not mail order yet.
 
A lot of great info in this thread!
I recently found this catalog on Ebay. I assume it's older than his #19 catalog because it has no info on the Super target sights, but it does have some front sights listed for handguns.
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2131f331fb1e73a0a8d9354919785e5c.jpg
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Paul
SWCA 2864
 
I do believe we were bidding against each other a bit there.

I bought this one from the same seller, who I think also had a pamphlet on King shotgun beads.
 
Sixgun, Bengal Fan, DC Wilson, et al:

For those seeking further information on the King Gun Sight Co. I recommend a look at the multi-part series of articles on the King company and its products authored by Jim Wallinger and Jim King. This series was published in the SWCA Journal about 10 years ago. The Journal Index located on the SWCA Members site will give you the exact issues where this series was published.
 
DCWilson said:
The grooved step and round depression behind the sight are unfamiliar features to me,
Click to expand...
David,
The grooved flat is, as you know, a modification.
The dimple is merely a remnant of part of the original sight channel.

Great gun and great catalogs.
THANKS, guys!

On the hole-
Can you show a better pic?
Is it plugged?
 

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It's filled with some sort of metal, but it doesnt seem very deep.



My first thought actually was that it was put there to attach a stock to the gun, but that seems a bit crazy.
 
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