Hermann Goering's M&P Revolver

DWalt · Jun 15, 2015

There is a 2012 thread on this topic: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/243531-hermann-goerings-s-w-revolver.html

Several years ago, I think at a garage sale or estate sale, I bought a boxed set of VHS tapes, The "CBS World War II" series from the 1980s, with Walter Cronkite. It had never been opened, and has been sitting on my bookshelf since I bought it. It is 8 VHS tapes, about 3 hours each, all narrated by Cronkite. Last night, I decided to start it, and found that the movie footage shown is like nothing I have ever seen before on the History Channel, etc, and is of very high quality. Highly recommended if you happen to run across a set (by the way, I still have two VHS players, little used now).

Anyway, on the second tape was a detailed treatment on the background of the rise of Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, and Hess. In the Goering segment was a movie clip of Goering's capture and his surrendering of his M&P to a US officer. Even though fairly brief, you could see it pretty well. To me, it appeared to have a 5" barrel (even though the one in the West Point Museum has a 4" barrel), and definitely has the 1930s style silver medallion grips.

Watchdog · Jun 15, 2015

DWalt said:
Anyway, on the second tape was a detailed treatment on the background of the rise of Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, and Hess. In the Goering segment was a movie clip of Goering's capture and his surrendering of his M&P to a US officer.

I've seen that clip, though not on anything narrated by Walter Cronkite. That piece of film is pretty much part and parcel of every documentary program or series that shows the final days of the Third Reich and the aftermath at Nuremburg.

iskra · Jun 15, 2015

I would look to the first three requirements of substantiation. Documentation, documentation and documentation! Absent such, just another story in passing and likely pushing the credibility factor. Until credible proof, just to be taken as more unlikely than likely. The 'careless' stuff that makes news stories.
Just my take.

Watchdog · Jun 15, 2015

iskra said:
I would look to the first three requirements of substantiation. Documentation, documentation and documentation! Absent such, just another story in passing and likely pushing the credibility factor. Until credible proof, just to be taken as more unlikely than likely. The 'careless' stuff that makes news stories.
Just my take.

Credible proof of what? What are you talking about?

italiansport · Jun 15, 2015

I'm confused as well. Credible proof? It is well documented that Goering turned in a S&W revolver upon his surrender. It is now in the West Point Museum collection with good provenance tracing it from Goering to the museum.
What exactly are your issues with this?
Jim

jonny13sb · Jun 15, 2015

Now if someone tries to sell you Hermann Goering's M&P at the next gun show you might ask for a little paperwork.

shouldazagged · Jun 15, 2015

Damn, that probably means the one I bought on eBay isn't legit. That's three large I won't see again.

alwslate · Jun 16, 2015

Seems like I read somewhere that this event was filmed several
different times for dramatic effect and or propaganda purposes. If
true it's highly likely that during the staged scenes a revolver other
than Goering's original S&W could have been provided as a prop.

Watchdog · Jun 16, 2015

alwslate said:
Seems like I read somewhere that this event was filmed several
different times for dramatic effect and or propaganda purposes. If
true it's highly likely that during the staged scenes a revolver other
than Goering's original S&W could have been provided as a prop.

That could be true, and it wouldn't be the first time it happened...the flag raising on Iwo Jima is a prime example of that. We're all seen a couple of versions of that, I'm sure.

The thing about Goering surrendering his gun being filmed more than once is...where are the other versions? I've only seen the one version on every documentary I've watched. There might be some additional footage tacked on to the beginning or end (Goering walking with an American officer, for instance) on different shows, but the handing over the gun footage is always the same shot.

italiansport · Jun 16, 2015

Goering was also made to turn in one of his fancy dress daggers at the surrender and there is film footage of him unclipping it from his belt. One of the officers confiscated it but later gave it to another soldier who whined about needing it to fund a business venture after the war.
This idiot pried the gems out of the dagger broke the remains up and threw them away. I have no idea whet he got for the gems but the whole dagger would be worth a tidy sum today.
Another elusive Goering dagger is the one he's wearing pictured on the cover of Life magazine. The last known sighting of this dagger was on the seat of his Mercedes and it has never turned up in any collection.
Again; a valuable piece of militaria if it ever surfaces.
Jim

JSR III · Jun 16, 2015

Another elusive Goering dagger is the one he's wearing pictured on the cover of Life magazine. The last known sighting of this dagger was on the seat of his Mercedes and it has never turned up in any collection.

Hitler has it in his personal collection in Argentina according to Brian Williams.

Watchdog · Jun 16, 2015

JSR III said:
Hitler has it in his personal collection in Argentina according to Brian Williams.

Brian Williams made that up.

I have Der Führer himself and countless WWII artifacts hidden in a cave not far from Murphy, North Carolina, close to where Eric Rudolph hid out when the FBI was looking for him.

Gunhacker · Jun 16, 2015

The next time you're at the cave, give Jimmy Hoffa my regards too.

Absalom · Jun 16, 2015

WATCHDOG said:
I have Der Führer himself and countless WWII artifacts hidden in a cave not far from Murphy, North Carolina, close to where Eric Rudolph hid out when the FBI was looking for him.

Please ask him to do another one of these as proof

05CarbonDRZ · Jun 16, 2015

shouldazagged said:
Damn, that probably means the one I bought on eBay isn't legit. That's three large I won't see again.

You mean Gunbroker right? You can't buy Guns on E-Bay.

clang444 · Jun 16, 2015

A pre-War M&P is nice, but you think he would've gone for a Triple Lock...

JSR III · Jun 16, 2015

You mean Gunbroker right? You can't buy Guns on E-Bay.

Actually, you can't NOW but you used to be able to. I own a model 2 army that may have been one of the very last guns sold on fleabay.

iskra · Jun 17, 2015

First a quick and clear apology concerning my former post here. "My bad"... or something to that effect! And also I seem to have set off something denigrating the original post. I sometimes do fast reads. Here focused on a micro-impression and perhaps set the contextual stage for some of the humor that followed!
The documentation to which I was referring was of the fact of Herman ever actually more than momentarily possessing such a Smith as ostensibly surrendered. Essentially, of anything beyond a publicity staged media event. My perspective a bit ‘primed’ by: A) “Victors” who were into a lot of questionable Allied propaganda moves surrounding VE day and evidentially with considerable pressure to produce. B) Recollections of the small plethora of guns which have been attributed to Göring both in the Nazi era and geometrically so to his estate in the years subsequent to his death.
Yet all these things don’t mitigate what I do see as a couple of errors in my response. First in not clarifying my point of focus. Second in that very focus itself in ignoring the wider context of the original post.
And so the bottom line here…
For all such, an embarrassed ‘play it again Sherlock’ does sincerely apologise!

kwill1911 · Jun 17, 2015

Is this the clip:

Hermann Göring / Austria / 1945 | SD Stock Video 987-152-145 | Framepool Stock Footage

Hermann Göring / Austria / 1945 | SD Stock Video 851-510-651 | Framepool Stock Footage

Watchdog · Jun 17, 2015

kwill1911 said:
Is this the clip:

Yes, that's a segment of footage I've seen in numerous documentaries.

What's interesting is there's another segment in that same group of clips that shows Göring and three smiling American officers on a balcony as they walk inside...everyone's all chummy and smiling...one officer is patting Göring on the shoulder...and Göring is still carrying the revolver in the flap holster. There's no timeline given in these clips.

I'm sure there was a good bit of filming going on for American PR and propaganda purposes...I'm thinking it wasn't all straight documentary work.

We all know Göring killed himself with cyanide shortly before he was to be executed, so I'm sure American forces and officers wouldn't have let him walk around with a loaded revolver...I just don't see that happening.

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