S&W M1917 markings

A friend of mine purchased a M1917 DA revolver and I ran his S/N on Oldguns web page. It showed April 1918 mfg. date but
his revolver doesn't have the US Army stamped on the grip butt. It does have US property stamped under barrel.
Did they make some with US Govt property stamp under barrel without the US army butt stamped?
It's S/N is in 39xxx range.
Any info is helpful, thanks.

Welcome to the forum.

In a word, no. Is there anything on the butt? If there's a serial # on the butt, is it stamped parallel to the butt or crosswise in two lines?

This is the correct crosswise military stamping:

I would be willing to bet someone filed off the US Army part...odd that they didn't do the same with the United States Property part, too. People used to be nervous about getting in trouble for "stealing" US Property. I have seen some on GunBroker where this was done, SN left intact but the other markings gone.

Does it have the lanyard loop? Are you sure it isn't a commercial model that someone replaced the barrel with one from an Army model? Does it have the flaming bomb on the left side in the upper right corner of the frame?

Is the SN on the butt? Quite a few of these had the SN (along with the US Army stamp) on the butt ground off. The SN is often still on the barrel and rear of cylinder; however if the SN on the butt is missing that is problematic. There are a number of earlier posts (use the research/google button at the top of the page) discussing this issue. If the SN is on the butt, but not the US Army stamp, I don't know what the explanation would be but others may. Pictures would help. Good luck.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

deyomatic said:

Are you sure it isn't a commercial model that someone replaced the barrel with one from an Army model? Does it have the flaming bomb on the left side in the upper right corner of the frame?

Click to expand...

The lowest Coml model known in the SWCA database - #167382 shipped Oct, 1922.

Update on my friends M1917 DA 45:
I was mistaken on the S/N it is 139xx made Jan. 1918 per Oldgun.com web page.
It has US property stamp on bottom of barrel. It has S/N as in picture provided above by Hondo44 but does not have the USS Army Model 1917 markings and no sign of filing it off.
It has a circle with GHS inside it on left side of frame close to hammer.
The barrel, cylinder and frame all have same S/N stamping. It has S&W DA 45 on left side of barrel and S&W Patten markings on top of barrel.
No flaming bomb any where that my friend noticed on frame,
It has smooth grips and lanyard ring on butt.
I have a M1917 and it has all the correct markings, maybe his is a commercial model but it has a US property marked barrel.
Any more ideas on this?
Is there a commercial info thread any where with info on them?

I think I might be right...filing marks or not, it sounds like someone 86'd the "US Army Model 1917." I think the flaming bomb came along after the GHS mark.
If it was commercial, the SN would have been in a different orientation (90 degrees from the one pictured) and it would not have had provision for a lanyard loop, unless I'm completely misinformed.

deyomatic is right, it appears all correct for 1917 Army Model, with US butt markings removed neatly, not a commercial model. The com'l models have a serial # parallel to the butt like all other com'l models except those stamped on the front grip strap, 90 degrees from the one pictured in my post #2. But com'l models very often did have lanyard swivels.

My notes on 1917s:

1917 PRODUCTION SUMMARY:

Military 1917s are in the range #1 thru # 169959 which were completed in 1918. As usual with S&W, not all numbers were used. All were shipped to Springfield Armory.

If there’s an extra large stamped # like "19567" in the yoke, it’s an arsenal # indicating they reblued/refinished the gun.

Most early WWI 1917s are marked "GHS" in a circle, (Gilbert H. Stewart, Gov’t inspector), left side frame up near the hammer serial number range 1-42000. Middle range guns are marked with a flaming bomb, beginning c. #42000, April 1918.

War time 1917s did not have S&W trademark logos.

Earliest have smooth, concave top stocks and circular hammer grooves up to about #15,000. Although, many have been observed sporadically up to the #20,000 range. As with all things S&W, there is seldom a specific serial number cut off. Stocks w/concave top and the hammer grooves were deleted 1st.

Late war time guns are marked in various locations with an eagle head and "S" followed by a number like S1,S2, S3, S4, S6, S9, S24, S27, and S34, from April 1918 to war’s end or serial number 169959.
These marks are inspector marks used on Military guns which are also marked "United States Property” on the underside of the barrel.

The butt of the gun will have a two line serial number (when over 3 digits) and U.S. Army Model 1917 in four lines as well as a lanyard ring. “UNITED STATES PROPERTY” is roll stamped under the front end of the barrel.

Serial numbering of 1917s, Smith vs. Colt:
Many do not know that S&W 1917s are #d differently from Colt 1917s.
Smith also uses the serial # on the butt for the required government # as well.
Colt put the government # on the butt and its serial # on the frame in the crane.

The S&W serial # on the butt, as opposed to Colt, served a dual purpose; it was also S&W's government #. The serial number on the COLT US Army Model of 1917 is stamped on the frame, behind the crane, and a different number on the butt of their 1917 is the government #.

COMMERCIAL MODELS

“The factory added the 1917 as a regular cataloged commercial model in Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army.
No Army or US Property marks.
5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, but the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45".
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
S&W logo on left side.
Checkered non-medallion, convex top stocks during the 1920s. [Flat silver medallions thru the 1930s and war years.]
The lowest in the SWCA database = #167382 shipped Oct, 1922."
Lee Jarrett

For those concerned, here is what I found on the Govt. take over of S&W. Very interesting information:

"NOTES FROM THE ARCHIVES #6 - THE MODEL 1917 AND THE 'NATIONAL OPERATING COMPANY' by Charlie Pate. -
As some of you known, the Government took over the S&W plant in WWI. Since little has been published about this incident I have included a discussion of this matter from my book on WWII U.S. Handguns.
...Pressure to meet Army production demands led to expansion of the facilities and mandatory overtime for the staff. Although S&W exceeded the delivery rate specified in the contract the Army wanted even faster delivery.
Documentation from the period suggests that S&W was unwilling to pay time and a half for overtime since the Army would not pay the additional cost. Labor problems developed in the summer of 1918 and a walkout of the local machinist union (not authorized by the national organization) occurred in July. The union's officials blamed the men for the strike and were unable to control the situation. S&W discharged a group of men who led the strike, claiming they had broken their contract agreements. Details of subsequent events are not clear, but it appears that the War Labor Board insisted that S&W rehire the men. S&W refused. In late August when the situation threatened to impact production again, the Army requisitioned the plant. 1. A government backed corporation, the National Operating Company (NOC), was formed to manage the factory and assumed control on 13 September 1918. This was undoubtedly a difficult situation for all concerned. But based on Army reports on the delivery of S&W M1917 revolvers, the management transition did not significantly impact production.
In response to instructions from the Ordnance Department terminating production after the end of WWI, the NOC wrote the Ordnance Department on 27 December 1918 saying 58,613 of the last order (for 172,000) had been completed, accepted and fired and they had finished components to complete enough to total 75,000. The NOC recommended completion of these revolvers and turnover of the company to S&W management on 31 January 1919. The Ordnance District Chief approved. But the Ordnance Department disapproved and on 9 January 1919 directed acceptance of 'approximately 52,711 and such additional ones at to take care of the situation to date' (meaning the need to terminate production in an orderly fashion). The Claims Board concurred with the Ordnance Department on 10 January 1919. Operations at the plant were stopped on 15 January, an inventory taken, and the plant was returned to S&W management on 31 January 1919. An Army document dated 24 June 1920 says a total of 163,635 revolvers were delivered numbered 1 to 169,959.
The Army wanted S&W to take all the leftover parts but the firm refused. Approximately 7,300 revolvers were delivered partially completed and were not counted in the 613,635 figure. It is not clear if any were finished by the Army or not but the Army was costing out completion of revolvers from these parts before WWII.
As an interesting aside, hased on the tone of the documentation S&W management was still angry with the government when it insisted that the government purchase the left over parts and unfinished revolvers at the end of WWI. But this move turned out to be to S&W's disadv. A few Model N revolvers sold commercially in the 1920's have been noted with government inspectors' marks.
1. Correspondence indicates Army Requisition 709, Ord no. 604, dated 31 August 1918 was the order issued to take over the plant.
2. Both S&W and Colt were allowed to purchase M1917 revolvers left over when their rebuild contracts were terminated at the end of WWII."

References:
Adamek, Robert J. PISTOLS OF WORLD WAR I. Pentagon Printing Corporation. Pittsburg, Pa. 2001.
Hogg, Ian S. & John S. Weeks. MILITARY SMALL ARMS OF THE 20TH CENTURY. 7th Ed. Krause Publications. Iola, Wi. 1998.
Jinks, Roy G. HISTORY OF SMITH & WESSON. Revised. Beinfeld Publishing Co. North Hollywood, Ca. 1992.
Pate, Charles. U.S. HANDGUNS OF WORLD WAR II: THE SECONDARY PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS. Andrew Mowbrary Publishers. Lincoln, R.I. 1998.
Supica, Jim & Richard Nahas. STANDARD CATALOG OF SMITH & WESSON. Krause Publications. Iola, Wi. 1996.

FM23-35, SNL B-7

Thanks interesting!

Just FYI, there's a typo: this figure #163,635 is transposed to #613,635 above.