M1917 sighting at local show

[Timothy2700]

Sorry no pictures. Wish now I had taken in more detail at the show. I briefly chatted with the seller and then moved along. But now it’s stuck in my mind and would like some thoughts whether I should try tracking down the seller (might be possible).
Enough preamble…the meager details:

A M1917 revolver. British proof marks, including (in a tiny-sized font above the right trigger guard) a stamp stating something like “not made in England”. Crossed cannons legible on left side of frame. Seller thought it may have been a WWII lend-lease and said it was still in .45 ACP. Seemed to be in excellent mechanical condition. Unfortunately it was beautiful cosmetically as well - I say unfortunately because it was given an excellent bluing job at some point. Still had the lanyard loop. Vaguely recall wood diamond stocks but not positive; could have been a different booth.

Am pretty sure this would be a nice shooter, sort of like a 1930 Ford Model A coupe that has been over-restored. And this may be an affordable way to scratch my 1917 itch - so that my RR 1911 and Navy victory can get acquainted with a missing USGI sibling.
Asking price was $600.

Thoughts appreciated. Have difficulty forgetting about the brief visit.

Pictures now added

 

[Muley Gil]

Many American arms that were imported into the UK were stamped "NOT ENGLISH MAKE".

 

[6string]

Aah, the Monday after the gunshow……

I know that feeling!
(Better than, “Ugh! What was I thinking!?”)

Best wishes in snagging that deal. It’ll be worth it!

 

[Timothy2700]

Many American arms that were imported into the UK were stamped "NOT ENGLISH MAKE".

Thanks. But I am now wondering if there is a difference between Imported and a USG loan. I.E., US loan vs commercial sale.

 

[desi2358]

The "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" would have been applied when the gun was released from military stores and went through the Proof House to prepare it for commercial sale. Wartime Lend/Lease guns were technically still US property but unlike later (Cold War Era) guns they seem to have been sold off as surplus by the countries they had been supplied to instead of being reclaimed by the US government (such as the many guns that have been returned and sold through the CMP over the years).

PS: Guns imported for commercial sale would have to go through the Proof House before they could be sold. Guns supplied to the military would receive a military inspection but would not go through the commercial Proof House before military use.

 

[quinn]

If I'm reading this correctly, this sounds like a 455 Mk II. However, it may have had the cylinder reamed or shaved to shoot either 45 Colt or 45acp. This does not sound like a USGI gun to me. The 1917s exported to Brazil in 1937 & 1946 are chambered in 45acp though. Happy hunting!

 

[44wheelman]

Actual 45 acp barrel + cylinder...fair price.

Converted .455... that's a pass.

So what, another month before you see him again?

 

[Timothy2700]

Thanks for the thoughts, learned something today and will do more reading. Meanwhile I got the vendor’s contact info from the gun show organizers….sent him a text for more info and pics. If I get them I’ll post them.

10 photos attached....here and in the OP

Seller tells me timing and lockup good. Tight cyl gap as seen in photo. He sees no evidence of it being a former .455
He has shot it the range 45ACP.

Thanks


Tim

 

[Timothy2700]

Pictures added

 

[steelslaver]

455s converted to ACP will no longer have the serial number no the rear face of cylinder as it need shaved off to clearance the ACPs in moon clips.

Both of my 455s only have the serial number on the butt, not the US ARMY Model 1917.

 

[StrawHat]

That is NOT a converted 455. It is a 45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917. Also, not lend lease. It will be difficult, if not impossible, to unravel the story behind why it has the British proof marks.

Here is a thread on another similarly marked 45 Hand Ejector.

1917 with some English markings

Kevin

 

[Timothy2700]

455s converted to ACP will no longer have the serial number no the rear face of cylinder as it need shaved off to clearance the ACPs in moon clips.

Both of my 455s only have the serial number on the butt, not the US ARMY Model 1917.

Thank you steelslaver. Your comment triggered me to ask the seller for a photo of the cylinder. See attached. I think i am now good to add to my USGI history collection albeit with a detour to England.

 

[Timothy2700]

That is NOT a converted 455. It is a 45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917. Also, not lend lease. It will be difficult, if not impossible, to unravel the story behind why it has the British proof marks.

Here is a thread on another similarly marked 45 Hand Ejector.

1917 with some English markings

Kevin

Thank you Kevin. Very interesting links and usefull. It’s now clear Im looking at an original .45 ACP M1917 but the when’s and why’s of its path to Britain and back will be a slippery path to follow..
Cheers

 

[desi2358]

Thanks for the additional photos. As to how it got to Britain? IIRC the US sent various older firearms from military stocks to Britain as aid after Dunkirk. Besides the ones sent by the military there was also an effort to obtain personal firearms from US citizens (Send a gun to defend a British home). Most of the non standard firearms would have been issued to Home Guard units to free up standard British weapons for the regular army.

I've seen photos of M1917 rifles being received and inspected by the British, would not be surprised if some M1917 revolvers were also sent. Since some M1917 revolvers were sold off as surplus after WWI it's also possible this was one of those sent by a US citizen. After WWII the British government started to dispose of many obsolete or non standard firearms. While some, sadly, were dumped in the channel quite a few were sold off commercially and had to be submitted to the Proof House before they could sold.

Short of finding a list of US supplied weapons with serial numbers I doubt it would be possible to say for certain how this one got to Britain.

 

[2152hq]

The Crown/AM on the left side of the frame is the
British Air Ministry marking.
They used that from it's beginnings in WW1 until the early 60's I believe.
The Crown changed style as to wether a King or a Queen was on the Throne.

The proof marks are under the 1925 Brit Proof LAw as the Not English Make marking is present.
That mark was discontinued when the 1954 Proof Law was put into place.
Also under the 1925 Law,,the foreign mfg firearm did not have it's Brit proof marks put inside bold circles like it was demanded under the 1954 Law.


If the AM marking is legit,,I'd guess that revolver could be one used by that organization in either of the World Wars.
Just because it's a US issue,, a Brit pilot certainly wouldn't be stopped from carrying it along with a few extra rounds in 1/2moon clips as his last ditch survival weapon.
Lot's of freedom of choice for that option especially in the WW1 times from what I've read.

Take what you can get,,Get what you can take.

 

[Model19man]

For $600 I would not care what the story was. The revolver looks like it shoots fine.

 

[handejector]

Thanks for the additional photos. As to how it got to Britain? IIRC the US sent various older firearms from military stocks to Britain as aid after Dunkirk.

Correct. Roosevelt sold 20,000 Model 1917s to Britain between June and September of 1940. That predates Lend-Lease.
Your gun was reblued after being sold commercially and the grips are Repros.

 

[Timothy2700]

Correct. Roosevelt sold 20,000 Model 1917s to Britain between June and September of 1940. That predates Lend-Lease.
Your gun was reblued after being sold commercially and the grips are Repros.

Thanks handejector. Your post sums up nicely what previous responders and related links captured. Am looking forward to pick it up in a few days and to have a handgun reasonably connected to the Great War and the Second (especially the aftermath of Dunkirk) and the start of its private ownership beginning in the British proofing houses. Maybe I’ll look into period correct grips, but then maybe not given the commercial trip its been on for the past 50-60 years of its life.