Hello all. I have a question on serial numbers on pre 29s or maybe 1950s vintage smiths. I have a pre 29 serial s156xxx. I have looked and the only serial number on the gun is on the bottom of the grip frame. I see a lot posted on here and on gun broker with the serials on the ejector rod shroud and the cylinder rear face. Mine doesn't have those. My question is why? We're select guns marked that way or certain serial numbers marked that way? Thanks for help and knowledge.
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Question on pre 29 serial numbers.
- Thread starter bdblk12v
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You've asked a little question with a big answer. Most of this pertains to your Pre 29 situation but I'll give you the whole enchilada and hope you find it informative.
Serial # Locations:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.
Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9*. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, making it 10 locations on Target models.
*Post War continued the 6 and 9 (early Transitional target models with pre war sights only) s/n locations on fixed sight/target models with pre war sights until 1956-57, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.
**Target models will have the serial number on the front sight, under rear sight, and the rear sight blade although sometimes the rear blade is #'d with the assembly (factory work) # instead of serial #. If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.
We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.
Here are the 6 (or 7 on Triple Locks) fixed sight frame serial # locations pre war and locations remaining after WW II until 1957 to look for (not including pre war target sight stamped serial #s):
Here are the 6 (or 7) fixed sight frame serial # locations.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!
1. Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
3. Yoke - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
4. Extractor star - backside
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only** - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.
7. Mid-lock cam plate – “.44 HE 1st Model - Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).
*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number for all Hand Ejectors of any vintage with stamped numbers, (which includes any letter prefixes after WW II,) is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 Kit guns and Targets and .32 & .38 S&W Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames). The number on the butt may be drilled thru by the factory for installation of a lanyard swivel but is re-stamped on the grip frame, under the left stock. Factory installed swivels are always 1/10” forward of center. Generally the Pre war serial # on the butt reads with barrel to the right including I frame serial numbers on the forestrap. After WW II it reads with barrel to the left except for serial numbers on the forestrap.
** Stamped since 1857, stock #s, almost exclusively on right panel only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. Scratched, penciled or stamped on hard rubber and premium stocks; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s. Pre war penciled S/Ns are in the top half of the stock near the backstrap and read with the stock oriented with the back edge down. Sometimes a photo like this one is needed to “see” the penciled # as shown below:
Also, finding the penciled serial number was made much easier using The Gimps threshold tool.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...a-45-model-1917-commercial.html#post138932768
Decreasing Serial # locations: How many serial #s a particular S&W Hand Ejector may have has more to do with where it was in the production/assembly stages when the change order was issued, therefore as we've learned to expect with S&W, there are great variances and exceptions galore.
Officially, May 1, 1957 S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation. So it generally corresponds with model numbers ordered June 12, 1957. It was no longer necessary to routinely stamp the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm rear surface and show up unstamped over a transition period. Serial # locations therefore eventually dropped from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until late '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980). So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations and guns shipped after this time may have some of the former number locations because assembly was done over time and as inventory from the old process was used up.
Finally dropped from 6 locations to only 3 serial # locations left on the majority (but not all) by c. late 1957 which are:
Butt
Extractor star - backside until ~ 1980 with the new extractor star shape.
Right stock – backside until ~ 1979 when stocks were no longer hand fitted.
And by about the end of 1959, eventually to 4:
Butt,
Frame in yoke cut,
Extractor star (until c. 1980),
and back of right stock (until late '70s).
Extractor star: “…were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun’s lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns.
"I've observed a lot more since I made that statement.
Oddly, I have often observed all original 4 Screw K and N frames with numbered cylinders when none of the other parts were numbered, including the extractor.
“Obviously, something had changed in the fitting and/or finishing sequence for a short time that did not require numbering the extractor.
“Apparently, that sequence was changed again, and we arrive at the long used process of serial numbers on the frame and extractor only.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but once the extractor star serial # stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.
Serial # swap with Assembly (factory work) #s:
These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
EXCEPTION to only three locations: see rear target sight blade numbering under serial # locations above.
Serial number and assembly # locations have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Also soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. And when the serial # was stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day.
Yoke cut stamping of the serial # on later guns is the reason for many pre 1957 guns to be incorrectly registered by the useless assembly (work) # on the frame in the yoke cut.
“The reason for the triple alpha-numeric serial number system is that S&W ran out of serial numbers that they had been using up to the 1980 and need a serial number series that had enough number possibilities to keep them going for many years. The first guns in the triple alpha four numeric series was the L frame revolvers starting AAA0001 in 1980. The rest of the models were slow phased in from 1980 to approximate 1983. When it came time to assign the new series to the auto-loading handguns they were started at TAA0001. After this the company jumped around in the new series depending if there was a demand for a special number. I actually have three guns serial numbered RGJ0001 - 0003 and they are all different models. ATF objected to the company assigning special numbers and so now they are in a little better order. I hope that this answers your question.” Roy
Once laser engraved serial numbers were introduced, the last two locations continue on the bottom of the butt and in the yoke cut. But there are exceptions, like below the cylinder, left side of frame below the cyl window and may or may not be on the butt.
Serial # Locations:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.
Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9*. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, making it 10 locations on Target models.
*Post War continued the 6 and 9 (early Transitional target models with pre war sights only) s/n locations on fixed sight/target models with pre war sights until 1956-57, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.
**Target models will have the serial number on the front sight, under rear sight, and the rear sight blade although sometimes the rear blade is #'d with the assembly (factory work) # instead of serial #. If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.
We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.
Here are the 6 (or 7 on Triple Locks) fixed sight frame serial # locations pre war and locations remaining after WW II until 1957 to look for (not including pre war target sight stamped serial #s):
Here are the 6 (or 7) fixed sight frame serial # locations.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!
1. Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
3. Yoke - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
4. Extractor star - backside
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only** - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.
7. Mid-lock cam plate – “.44 HE 1st Model - Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).
*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number for all Hand Ejectors of any vintage with stamped numbers, (which includes any letter prefixes after WW II,) is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 Kit guns and Targets and .32 & .38 S&W Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames). The number on the butt may be drilled thru by the factory for installation of a lanyard swivel but is re-stamped on the grip frame, under the left stock. Factory installed swivels are always 1/10” forward of center. Generally the Pre war serial # on the butt reads with barrel to the right including I frame serial numbers on the forestrap. After WW II it reads with barrel to the left except for serial numbers on the forestrap.
** Stamped since 1857, stock #s, almost exclusively on right panel only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. Scratched, penciled or stamped on hard rubber and premium stocks; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s. Pre war penciled S/Ns are in the top half of the stock near the backstrap and read with the stock oriented with the back edge down. Sometimes a photo like this one is needed to “see” the penciled # as shown below:
Also, finding the penciled serial number was made much easier using The Gimps threshold tool.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...a-45-model-1917-commercial.html#post138932768
Decreasing Serial # locations: How many serial #s a particular S&W Hand Ejector may have has more to do with where it was in the production/assembly stages when the change order was issued, therefore as we've learned to expect with S&W, there are great variances and exceptions galore.
Officially, May 1, 1957 S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation. So it generally corresponds with model numbers ordered June 12, 1957. It was no longer necessary to routinely stamp the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm rear surface and show up unstamped over a transition period. Serial # locations therefore eventually dropped from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until late '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980). So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations and guns shipped after this time may have some of the former number locations because assembly was done over time and as inventory from the old process was used up.
Finally dropped from 6 locations to only 3 serial # locations left on the majority (but not all) by c. late 1957 which are:
Butt
Extractor star - backside until ~ 1980 with the new extractor star shape.
Right stock – backside until ~ 1979 when stocks were no longer hand fitted.
And by about the end of 1959, eventually to 4:
Butt,
Frame in yoke cut,
Extractor star (until c. 1980),
and back of right stock (until late '70s).
Extractor star: “…were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun’s lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns.
"I've observed a lot more since I made that statement.
Oddly, I have often observed all original 4 Screw K and N frames with numbered cylinders when none of the other parts were numbered, including the extractor.
“Obviously, something had changed in the fitting and/or finishing sequence for a short time that did not require numbering the extractor.
“Apparently, that sequence was changed again, and we arrive at the long used process of serial numbers on the frame and extractor only.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but once the extractor star serial # stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.
Serial # swap with Assembly (factory work) #s:
These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
EXCEPTION to only three locations: see rear target sight blade numbering under serial # locations above.
Serial number and assembly # locations have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Also soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. And when the serial # was stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day.
Yoke cut stamping of the serial # on later guns is the reason for many pre 1957 guns to be incorrectly registered by the useless assembly (work) # on the frame in the yoke cut.
“The reason for the triple alpha-numeric serial number system is that S&W ran out of serial numbers that they had been using up to the 1980 and need a serial number series that had enough number possibilities to keep them going for many years. The first guns in the triple alpha four numeric series was the L frame revolvers starting AAA0001 in 1980. The rest of the models were slow phased in from 1980 to approximate 1983. When it came time to assign the new series to the auto-loading handguns they were started at TAA0001. After this the company jumped around in the new series depending if there was a demand for a special number. I actually have three guns serial numbered RGJ0001 - 0003 and they are all different models. ATF objected to the company assigning special numbers and so now they are in a little better order. I hope that this answers your question.” Roy
Once laser engraved serial numbers were introduced, the last two locations continue on the bottom of the butt and in the yoke cut. But there are exceptions, like below the cylinder, left side of frame below the cyl window and may or may not be on the butt.
Last edited:
Wow! What an educational post!
Your 44 Magnum is unusual in that it only has the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame. It is possible the barrel and cylinder were replaced as part of a rework operation during manufacture and not numbered. I have a couple of 44 Magnums with no number on the cylinder and extractor, but the barrel is numbered. With S&W, anything is possible.
Bill
Bill
bdblk12v;
Did you check for a serial # on the rear face of the Yoke visible thru a chamber with a flashlight?
Do the assembly #s on the yoke and yoke cut in the frame opposite the yoke match?
Did you check for a serial # on the rear face of the Yoke visible thru a chamber with a flashlight?
Do the assembly #s on the yoke and yoke cut in the frame opposite the yoke match?
There should be an assembly number on the lower left hand corner of the grip frame (five digit number, not the serial number) and the same number stamped on the inside surface of the yoke (you have to open the cylinder to see it). These numbers were put there when the side plate and yoke were fitted to the grip frame.
Bill
Bill
Bill,
His 44 is way too early for an assembly # on the grip frame. From post #2:
"Serial number and assembly # locations have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. And when the serial # was stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame."
Jim...you are correct. Not sure what I was thinking with my response.
Bill
Bill
caddy2507
SWCA Member
Question about serial numbers on the grip(s).
I have an early (SN#166401) pre model 29. I did not
find any serial numbers on the grips. Would these have been
pencil vs. stamped? If so, I could have missed them.
Thanks in advance for your help.
I have an early (SN#166401) pre model 29. I did not
find any serial numbers on the grips. Would these have been
pencil vs. stamped? If so, I could have missed them.
Thanks in advance for your help.
In that period, stocks would be stamped, but target stocks are very seldom stamped with the s/n. They take little or not fitting so aren't specific to the each gun.
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