Is anyone familiar with this mark ?
Thanks,
Bruce
Thanks,
Bruce
Stamp or Mark on 1917
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Canada.
Accepted for Service.
Is it marked "Model 1917" on the butt, or is it a 455?
Accepted for Service.
Is it marked "Model 1917" on the butt, or is it a 455?
Last edited:
OP
It has a 4 digit serial and lanyard ring on the butt. No "V". No caliber marks that I can see.
Not marked Model 1917 on butt.
Not marked Model 1917 on butt.
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Welcome to the forum.
Can you post a photo of the butt and or the underside of the barrel?
It wouldn't have a V serial prefix unless it was a Victory model and then wouldn't be a Model of 1917 Army. The 1917 is an N frame in .45 caliber and the Victory model is a K frame in .38 caliber.
Can you post a photo of the butt and or the underside of the barrel?
It wouldn't have a V serial prefix unless it was a Victory model and then wouldn't be a Model of 1917 Army. The 1917 is an N frame in .45 caliber and the Victory model is a K frame in .38 caliber.
OP
Thanks for the welcome, but actually, I've been here a while. You gave me some good advice on a "Shipped" Bekeart a few months back.
Here is the butt and the only markings I saw on the barrel.
It was at auction....I was a little scared of it because they said it was 45 Colt and there was no caliber marked on it it. I had a sneaking suspicion that the mark was the Canadian Broad Arrow and was concerned that it might be 455.
Thanks,
Bruce
OP
Well shucks, guess I should include the photos.
Hi Bruce,
The Canadian stamp could very well indicate a very scarce factory chambered 45 Colt which did not have a caliber stamp! Or a converted 455, which often did not have a caliber stamp.
And there are other original 455 2nd Models factory chambered in 45 Colt, but not having anything to do with Canada.
The things to observe or questions to ask are: is the serial # missing from the rear face of the cyl or are the chambers slightly recessed for the Colt rim. If either is true, it's been converted to 45 Colt. If neither is true, it's a scarce factory 45 Colt!
I hope you didn't miss out on an original Canadian 45 Colt. Is the auction over? If over, do you know the selling price? If auction is over, you can post a link here in the forum.
See category 3 below:
There are three basic categories of .455 (Webley) Mk II Hand Ejectors by S&W and all three categories include some triple locks, (.455 Webley Mk II refers to the cartridge, as named by S&W, not the revolver, however the 455 HE 2nd Model was stamped II for Mark II on the left rear frame of the revolver and was known as such by the British.)
The 3 Versions of .455 Mk II Hand Ejectors (actually all chamber reamed to also accommodate the longer .455 Webley Mk I cartridge per the British contract. So the model name is a bit of a misnomer), for the British are:
1. ".44 HE 1st Model", 'Triple Lock' converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].
NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mk II HE 1st Model", TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 ".44 HE 1st Model TLs", also in .455 in 1. above.
*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:
Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.
3. ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the 44 1st Model and 455 HE 1st Model TLs in 1. and 2. above) continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15** in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].
*""Roy's comments on that model might be helpful here [regarding an original Factory .45 Colt # 747xx that shipped on May 4, 1917]: "Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 units of 2nd Models that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately the manufacturing records did not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list in this same time period the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled."Roy Jinks" Bob (Bettis1)
"The 727 [724]number could be correct but there have only been a small number that are from this shipment. less that 20 documented." Jim Fisher 'bmg60'
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139085603
**"The run of 15 with consecutive serial numbers, made in 1916 are all commercial, #46748 from that range is documented. There is no cal markings on this gun and the only other markings are the standard. Roy had to research the build records to find them because the ship records did listed no Cal. The front sights on these factory chambered for.45 Colt is a little higher [than 455 revolvers]. This is the only one of the 15 that is known. Roy said he guessed the other 14 were for a shipment to some other country." Jim Fisher 'bmg60' http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139086401
The Canadian stamp could very well indicate a very scarce factory chambered 45 Colt which did not have a caliber stamp! Or a converted 455, which often did not have a caliber stamp.
And there are other original 455 2nd Models factory chambered in 45 Colt, but not having anything to do with Canada.
The things to observe or questions to ask are: is the serial # missing from the rear face of the cyl or are the chambers slightly recessed for the Colt rim. If either is true, it's been converted to 45 Colt. If neither is true, it's a scarce factory 45 Colt!
I hope you didn't miss out on an original Canadian 45 Colt. Is the auction over? If over, do you know the selling price? If auction is over, you can post a link here in the forum.
See category 3 below:
There are three basic categories of .455 (Webley) Mk II Hand Ejectors by S&W and all three categories include some triple locks, (.455 Webley Mk II refers to the cartridge, as named by S&W, not the revolver, however the 455 HE 2nd Model was stamped II for Mark II on the left rear frame of the revolver and was known as such by the British.)
The 3 Versions of .455 Mk II Hand Ejectors (actually all chamber reamed to also accommodate the longer .455 Webley Mk I cartridge per the British contract. So the model name is a bit of a misnomer), for the British are:
1. ".44 HE 1st Model", 'Triple Lock' converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].
NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mk II HE 1st Model", TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 ".44 HE 1st Model TLs", also in .455 in 1. above.
*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:
Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.
3. ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the 44 1st Model and 455 HE 1st Model TLs in 1. and 2. above) continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15** in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].
*""Roy's comments on that model might be helpful here [regarding an original Factory .45 Colt # 747xx that shipped on May 4, 1917]: "Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 units of 2nd Models that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately the manufacturing records did not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list in this same time period the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled."Roy Jinks" Bob (Bettis1)
"The 727 [724]number could be correct but there have only been a small number that are from this shipment. less that 20 documented." Jim Fisher 'bmg60'
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139085603
**"The run of 15 with consecutive serial numbers, made in 1916 are all commercial, #46748 from that range is documented. There is no cal markings on this gun and the only other markings are the standard. Roy had to research the build records to find them because the ship records did listed no Cal. The front sights on these factory chambered for.45 Colt is a little higher [than 455 revolvers]. This is the only one of the 15 that is known. Roy said he guessed the other 14 were for a shipment to some other country." Jim Fisher 'bmg60' http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139086401
Last edited:
OP
Thanks Hondo.
There was no serial on the rear face of the cylinder, that I could see, and the chambers appear to be slightly recessed. That is what made me hold off buying. The auction has ended, but it has been relisted.
It was really an interesting piece, and I have always liked the 45 Colt, but it would have been a departure from the direction my collection is going at this point.
I really appreciate all the info on here. I am at that point where I know just enough to be dangerous. I spent a couple hours reading about the Canadian 455/45's yesterday, but was still second guessing myself.
There was no serial on the rear face of the cylinder, that I could see, and the chambers appear to be slightly recessed. That is what made me hold off buying. The auction has ended, but it has been relisted.
It was really an interesting piece, and I have always liked the 45 Colt, but it would have been a departure from the direction my collection is going at this point.
I really appreciate all the info on here. I am at that point where I know just enough to be dangerous. I spent a couple hours reading about the Canadian 455/45's yesterday, but was still second guessing myself.
deadin
US Veteran
Loks to me like a .455 MkII 2nd Issue that has been shaved to handle either .45ACP in clips, .45 Auto Rim or, possibly, .45 Colt.
Can you measure the cylinder to recoil shield gap? Also, is there a "step" in the charge hole or has it been reamed out?
If it will accept the length of a .45 Colt then it probably was reamed. if it was shaved strictly for the Colt round it shouldn't close on a 45 AR or an ACP in a moon clip due to the difference in rim thickness....
Can you measure the cylinder to recoil shield gap? Also, is there a "step" in the charge hole or has it been reamed out?
If it will accept the length of a .45 Colt then it probably was reamed. if it was shaved strictly for the Colt round it shouldn't close on a 45 AR or an ACP in a moon clip due to the difference in rim thickness....
