.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
- Thread starter Hondo44
- Start date
OP
Thx JM!
Ah hah, I didn't think it would. I believe you have a very special 455 TL.
Because that serial # is not in any of the Brit contract WWI service revolver serial # ranges and since it doesn't have any Brit acceptance, proof, or import/export stamps.
I believe it must be a "44 Special Hand Ejector - 1st Model" for these reasons:
1. likely it was special ordered new from S&W with a 455 Mk II chambering,
2. no brit stamps,
3. marked 455 on barrel (the Brit TLs were not marked),
4. and numbered in the 44 serial # range. That would make it one of around 100 and very scarce.
I would definitely get an Historical Letter for that one to confirm!
The only other possibility is that it's a #3B version in my post #178 but as you'll see it's serial # is over 2000 #s higher than any known in that range. And it was sold on the com'l market, not shipped to England.
Ah hah, I didn't think it would. I believe you have a very special 455 TL.
Because that serial # is not in any of the Brit contract WWI service revolver serial # ranges and since it doesn't have any Brit acceptance, proof, or import/export stamps.
I believe it must be a "44 Special Hand Ejector - 1st Model" for these reasons:
1. likely it was special ordered new from S&W with a 455 Mk II chambering,
2. no brit stamps,
3. marked 455 on barrel (the Brit TLs were not marked),
4. and numbered in the 44 serial # range. That would make it one of around 100 and very scarce.
I would definitely get an Historical Letter for that one to confirm!
The only other possibility is that it's a #3B version in my post #178 but as you'll see it's serial # is over 2000 #s higher than any known in that range. And it was sold on the com'l market, not shipped to England.
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wiley
Member
I have a 2nd Model marked 455 on left side of the barrel> The S/N is 8343 as marked on the butt grip and on the frame next to the crane. The crane is also marked with this number in 2 places. The barrel and cylinder are marked 54795, so I'm not sure which is the correct S/N! There is a defaced proof on the knuckle above the grip, and the backstrap is marked RCMP 97
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According to "Arms & accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973: The first one hundred years" the RCMP did not buy S&W revolvers in 455 caliber, they bought Colt New Services until WW2.
I would question the RCMP markings on the above mentioned gun.
I would question the RCMP markings on the above mentioned gun.
There were many with British and / or Canadian proofs in .455. Were those only for the military. I have a New Service in .455 I guess I should mortgage my house to get a letter from Colt on it.
OP
Thank you. The # on the butt is strange to be matching the assembly #s in the yoke. Could we get a photo of that?
Likely if the butt # was removed and later restamped, the wrong # was used which is not uncommon. The serial # is 54795.
It can be confirmed in 3 other locations:
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
4. Extractor star - backside
6. Right stock only - on back; penciled om this vintage and stock material.
OP
In 1873 the North West Mounted Police (NWMP) was created. The .450 Adams revolver was the original sidearm, ex- British Army guns, shipped over “packed in a valise” (a reference to why so many were found damaged upon arrival from England and not useable. Period photos show Adams in a cross-draw leather belt holster. I'm not aware that the Colt SAA was ever used by the NWMP.)
1904 'Royal' was bestowed upon the NWMP and they became the RNWMP. The Colt New Service was 1st ordered, and they were chambered in .455 Eley & re-ordered 3 more times thru 1914.
1918 they switched to the .45 Colt chambered NS. This is the period that 724 S&W “455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Models” chambered in 45 Colt were ordered by the RNWMP. No serial # list known, Pg 203 H of S&W. But a # range has been reported*.
1920 RNWMP merged w/the Dominion Police Force to become a Canadian wide force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).
1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys (MK II) was ordered. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colt chambered guns were moved to eastern Canada and all 455 Eleys to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.
1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired and the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police (Pre mod 10) was adopted (thought to be 5 ½” barrels).
1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.
Revolvers were usually stamped with variations of the RCMP letters. Of the 3,195 Colt NS revolvers, only 2800 were actually stamped with an issue number. Mostly MP marked Colt New Service revolvers have been observed.
*Most of the 724 are in the 70K range, though there are some earlier... in the 40K range... that didn't go to Canada. #74301 is one that did, a Canadian-shipped .455 HE 2nd Mod. in .45 Colt.
Post #13 has an interesting story of one here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...1397-rcmp-455-second-model.html#post137889347
Forum member Jim Fisher has one in the 40K range that was found a few years back; there are 14 others mfg. (if my recall is correct) at the same time.
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1904 'Royal' was bestowed upon the NWMP and they became the RNWMP. The Colt New Service was 1st ordered, and they were chambered in .455 Eley & re-ordered 3 more times thru 1914.
1918 they switched to the .45 Colt chambered NS. This is the period that 724 S&W “455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Models” chambered in 45 Colt were ordered by the RNWMP. No serial # list known, Pg 203 H of S&W. But a # range has been reported*.
1920 RNWMP merged w/the Dominion Police Force to become a Canadian wide force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).
1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys (MK II) was ordered. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colt chambered guns were moved to eastern Canada and all 455 Eleys to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.
1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired and the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police (Pre mod 10) was adopted (thought to be 5 ½” barrels).
1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.
Revolvers were usually stamped with variations of the RCMP letters. Of the 3,195 Colt NS revolvers, only 2800 were actually stamped with an issue number. Mostly MP marked Colt New Service revolvers have been observed.
*Most of the 724 are in the 70K range, though there are some earlier... in the 40K range... that didn't go to Canada. #74301 is one that did, a Canadian-shipped .455 HE 2nd Mod. in .45 Colt.
Post #13 has an interesting story of one here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...1397-rcmp-455-second-model.html#post137889347
Forum member Jim Fisher has one in the 40K range that was found a few years back; there are 14 others mfg. (if my recall is correct) at the same time.
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OP
I do too! In particular because the known marking is just MP with an issue #.
The RCMP did not buy 455s. But The Canadian military bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].
Canadian military shipments of 14,500:
-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6,000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
At least 1 shipped July 29th, 1916, see post #10: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-455-hand-ejector-45-colt.html#post139027072
wiley
Member
Not best pics, and I couldn't figure a way to shoot rear face of crane, which has the same #8345. Same with rear face of extractor, it is #54795.
I believe the #8345 number on the frame is the s/n because of location. Regards,
Wiley
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wiley
Member
Not best pics, and I couldn't figure a way to shoot rear face of crane, which has the same #8345. Same with rear face of extractor, it is #54795.
I believe the #8345 number on the frame is the s/n because of location. Regards,
Wiley
OP
Well that was easy. The butt photo says it all, no more mystery.
The first mistake was using the assembly # to restamp the butt and a little crooked from a factory stamping.
The 2nd and worst mistake was; the # is stamped upside down and on the wrong side of the lanyard swivel! A lead pipe cinch it's been restamped!
3rd mistake was also stamping the 8345 on the yoke face.
Until 1942 serial #s on the butt read right side up with muzzle to the right.
After that they read correctly with muzzle to the left like yours.
The face of the yoke is restamped as well. The gun may also or may not have a replaced barrel, cyl/extractor star, and yoke, not original to the gun.
If original to the frame, the side plate will have the 8345 assembly # on the inside.
Can you find a penciled # on the inside of right grip with good light and magnification? That may have the frame's original serial #. At least it'll tell you if barrel and cyl are original.
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wiley
Member
The #8345 does appear in the recess for the hand. LH grip doesn't show much, it's split on the back side and has had sanding done for what ever purpose. Same with the right grip, although there is an 03 stamped in it next to the screw hole. I tend to suppose that it is a Canadian gun, even though the mark is mostly obliterated, and that it was rebuilt with a new barrel, extractor and cylinder.
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Here is a .44spl TL, but with a .455 connection. The letter mentions a group of .455s from 1910, which I presume would be commercial, but your database shows nothing in that s/n range. I have asked SWHF for any info on the group and will pass on any results.
Bob
Bob
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OP
Thank you Bob,
That's a very special 44 TL Military Target -1st Model, factory chambered for the 455 Mk II/Webley cartridge as confirmed in the letter.
The unusual target sight arrangement is well known albeit not common on the TL. They're often referred to as Bisley, (England) Match revolvers. The target sights are specifically to meet a Bisley Match rule, which disallowed fully adjustable rear target sights, and I'm a bit disappointed that this was not mentioned in this particular letter.
What is the date on the letter, as it reads like an older letter?
Because of it's semi-target configuration, very early shipping date, and shipping destination, it clearly has no relationship to the British military contract revolver orders which came about 4 years later.
The "military" part of the military target description refers only to S&Ws official name for this model with fixed sights: "44 Military Model of 1908".
You're correct, I have no other examples from this group of revolvers that shipped together, but I do have a category "0", to which yours has been added, for all other 44 TL revolvers factory chambered in 455, prior to or during British military orders, but not known to be within the BSR 44 or 455 military serial # ranges that shipped under the contract.
I suspect this group of military target models were ordered by Robinson for US target shooters to compete at Bisley, or possibly by a British team. Although if for English shooters, any that made it across the 'big pond' would likely show Civilian acceptance/proof marks. Yours apparently never left the USA shores, however, except perhaps in a US competitor's shooting bag.
That's not to say that none of these were scooped up by the British Purchasing Commission (as they did myriad US firearms) to eventually end up in the WW I conflict whether on the battlefield or with the English home guard.
That's a very special 44 TL Military Target -1st Model, factory chambered for the 455 Mk II/Webley cartridge as confirmed in the letter.
The unusual target sight arrangement is well known albeit not common on the TL. They're often referred to as Bisley, (England) Match revolvers. The target sights are specifically to meet a Bisley Match rule, which disallowed fully adjustable rear target sights, and I'm a bit disappointed that this was not mentioned in this particular letter.
What is the date on the letter, as it reads like an older letter?
Because of it's semi-target configuration, very early shipping date, and shipping destination, it clearly has no relationship to the British military contract revolver orders which came about 4 years later.
The "military" part of the military target description refers only to S&Ws official name for this model with fixed sights: "44 Military Model of 1908".
You're correct, I have no other examples from this group of revolvers that shipped together, but I do have a category "0", to which yours has been added, for all other 44 TL revolvers factory chambered in 455, prior to or during British military orders, but not known to be within the BSR 44 or 455 military serial # ranges that shipped under the contract.
I suspect this group of military target models were ordered by Robinson for US target shooters to compete at Bisley, or possibly by a British team. Although if for English shooters, any that made it across the 'big pond' would likely show Civilian acceptance/proof marks. Yours apparently never left the USA shores, however, except perhaps in a US competitor's shooting bag.
That's not to say that none of these were scooped up by the British Purchasing Commission (as they did myriad US firearms) to eventually end up in the WW I conflict whether on the battlefield or with the English home guard.
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Jim,
This gun is in caliber .44Spl (not marked on the barrel, but verified). I posted in this thread because of the .455 association in the letter. No British proofs on the frame; the cylinder is a replacement. Possibly an American competitor at Bisley? The letter is from 2000. I hope SWHF has more information available than Roy did at that time.
Bob
This gun is in caliber .44Spl (not marked on the barrel, but verified). I posted in this thread because of the .455 association in the letter. No British proofs on the frame; the cylinder is a replacement. Possibly an American competitor at Bisley? The letter is from 2000. I hope SWHF has more information available than Roy did at that time.
Bob
OP
Hi Bob,
Hmmm, well if not serial numbered on the barrel obviously it's not original along with the cylinder, so I agree they've been replaced, but not by the factory. The revolver most likely was in 455. Yes, possibly an American Bisley competitor that knew the 44 Spl inherent accuracy advantage over the 455.
As stated in the letter, the caliber was not indicated on the shipping record/invoice, so the original caliber will not likely come from Roy. But when the 2000 letter you have was written, I didn't get the impression Roy was told that the barrel and cyl were 44 with no or none matching numbers. So a new letter might be interesting given that knowledge and the 18 years of additional knowledge Roy has obtained.
I too hope the SWHF may have more info, but I'm not encouraged because the archives aren't digitized for all years. And they'd only have info on work the factory did, and we know the barrel and cyl are 44 with no or none matching numbers which confirms it was not done at the factory. But worth a try because if nothing is found, it won't cost you anything.
Robinson's old records if they still exist may be the best source of your revolver's original configuration or changes if Robinson was tasked with getting that work done for a customer, at a local gunsmith they used.
By the way, that .44 7 1/2" barrel is a scarce one!
Hmmm, well if not serial numbered on the barrel obviously it's not original along with the cylinder, so I agree they've been replaced, but not by the factory. The revolver most likely was in 455. Yes, possibly an American Bisley competitor that knew the 44 Spl inherent accuracy advantage over the 455.
As stated in the letter, the caliber was not indicated on the shipping record/invoice, so the original caliber will not likely come from Roy. But when the 2000 letter you have was written, I didn't get the impression Roy was told that the barrel and cyl were 44 with no or none matching numbers. So a new letter might be interesting given that knowledge and the 18 years of additional knowledge Roy has obtained.
I too hope the SWHF may have more info, but I'm not encouraged because the archives aren't digitized for all years. And they'd only have info on work the factory did, and we know the barrel and cyl are 44 with no or none matching numbers which confirms it was not done at the factory. But worth a try because if nothing is found, it won't cost you anything.
Robinson's old records if they still exist may be the best source of your revolver's original configuration or changes if Robinson was tasked with getting that work done for a customer, at a local gunsmith they used.
By the way, that .44 7 1/2" barrel is a scarce one!
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Jim,
The barrel is not caliber marked, which is unusual (unheard of?) for a .44spl. But it is serial numbered to the butt, and fired .44spl bullets show no slippage as they would if fired from an oversized barrel. I hope SWHF has further info on this and the .455s from the same group.
Bob
The barrel is not caliber marked, which is unusual (unheard of?) for a .44spl. But it is serial numbered to the butt, and fired .44spl bullets show no slippage as they would if fired from an oversized barrel. I hope SWHF has further info on this and the .455s from the same group.
Bob
OP
Sorry, I mis-understood about the barrel being serial numbered. That's good, so just the cyl doesn't match.
And yes, very unusual for a 44 barrel not to be caliber marked.
And yes, very unusual for a 44 barrel not to be caliber marked.
Jim,
Just found something else, unfortunately with no serial numbers. This came from the notes of the person I bought mine from. It is from Larry/dbwesson to Joe Miller on the old forum. Someone who has a copy of his survivors database may be able to provide s/n.
Just found something else, unfortunately with no serial numbers. This came from the notes of the person I bought mine from. It is from Larry/dbwesson to Joe Miller on the old forum. Someone who has a copy of his survivors database may be able to provide s/n.
OP
Very interesting.
Since your gun was shipped almost 2 years later, it could very well have been an extra one of those earlier frames (also called an 'over-run' frame) with the 'military target' sight, i.e., Bisley Match sight, but assembled as a 44.
Roy's letter does indicate the sights are factory in his letter above. And even states it was manufactured in a group of 455 guns, but he didn't say it shipped with them. I think his assumption that yours was a 455 was based on that, but an incorrect assumption since yours is an original 44, or factory converted to 44 2 years later when an order came in for a Bisley sighted 44 Spl.
How about some close up photos of the rear sight; top and side view?
Since your gun was shipped almost 2 years later, it could very well have been an extra one of those earlier frames (also called an 'over-run' frame) with the 'military target' sight, i.e., Bisley Match sight, but assembled as a 44.
Roy's letter does indicate the sights are factory in his letter above. And even states it was manufactured in a group of 455 guns, but he didn't say it shipped with them. I think his assumption that yours was a 455 was based on that, but an incorrect assumption since yours is an original 44, or factory converted to 44 2 years later when an order came in for a Bisley sighted 44 Spl.
How about some close up photos of the rear sight; top and side view?
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