Hand Ejector torsion sping install

wileybelch · Dec 4, 2017

I have a Hand Ejector, .38 Spl, 4th change, produced in early 1920s, with a missing hand torsion spring (don't ask me how long it took to discover there was such a thing!). Will a Model 10 torsion spring work in my HE? That's the only similar model listed in the Brownell's catalog.
Are there any other sources for these obscure parts for Hand Ejectors?
Assuming I get a proper new one, how do you install it? Anyone have an Internet reference?
Does anyone know how far the firing pin should protrude from the frame when the hammer is down?
Has anyone had a HE barrel relined? What are the particulars?

Hondo44 · Dec 4, 2017

Yes, a mod 10 spring is virtually the same and will work.

It's a very common part and many sources will have it including S&W if you ask for a Mod 10 spring.

I'm afraid you might have to observe one mounted in a trigger but I'll try:

To install spring you must pull the torsion spring pin from the trigger, place spring in position with the long leg of the spring pointing to the rear and coming from the bottom of the spring coil to be installed correctly. Replace the pin thru the spring coil. Spring will not be under tension when installed until you install the hand.

That leg must be above the smaller of the two pins in the base of the hand when the hand is installed. It's easiest to install the hand by pushing, thru the bottom of the trigger, the spring leg up with a very small screwdriver tip, then push the two pins at the base of the hand into the two holes in the rear of the trigger from the right side, assuring the spring leg is above the small pin. The hand will now be properly tensioned by the spring.

The firing pin should not protrude at all with the hammer down and trigger forward. With trigger held all the way back and hammer down, the firing pin should contact the cartridge primer.

The barrel is drilled out oversize, the same diameter as the liner. The liner is pressed in and glued or soldered. Then finished up flush with both ends of the barrel, and a forcing cone cut in the rear end of the liner bore.

wileybelch · Dec 5, 2017

OK Hondo, your install procedure will be easy to follow. However, what happens with the shorter front leg of the torsion spring? Inside the trigger there is the trigger lever that pushes on the rebound slide. Does that short leg just lay on top of that?
On the barrel relining: the barrel seems fairly thin to start with. How much barrel thickness needs to remain after drilling out to receive the new liner?

Hondo44 · Dec 5, 2017

In front of the pin that goes thru the coil spring, there's another slightly larger pin. The front leg of the spring has a hook that hooks over the top of that pin.

The liner is not very thick walled. It get's its strength from the barrel. So the liner hole drilled thru the barrel is kept to a minimum diameter. A lined barrel actually gains strength with the liner and barrel sandwiched together.

Wiregrassguy · Dec 5, 2017

Jim, an M&P from the 1920's (1905, 4th Change) had a hand lever and spring, not a torsion (pigtail) spring. Will a modern pigtail spring work? There is an illustration here that shows the orientation of the pigtail to the pins and hand. Scroll down. It follows the picture of the 686 action.

By the way, Gun Parts & Firearm Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts has the hand lever and hand lever spring. Any Victory model parts seller on eBay probably also has them.

Hondo44 · Dec 5, 2017

Guy,

Good point. If he doesn't have the 2nd pin & hole for the torsion spring front leg to hook over, he needs the front spring with the lever, #1 below.

There are three different pre war hands; the two shown in photos above for the two different hammer block safeties, and the earliest style with no hammer block safety.

The 1st style hand (with no hammer block) has two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the front of the trigger with a lever to tension the hand (one pin hole just below the trigger pivot pin hole).

The 2nd style hand shown in 1st photo above has a single pin at the base and there is no hand spring in the trigger (no pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole). The pin in the side plate hammer block is spring loaded for the hand.

The 3rd style hand shown in the 2nd photo above has 2 two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the rear of the trigger (two pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole), like post war triggers.

The 1st and 3rd style triggers will interchange.

From my post #9 here: Side Plate ID

Hondo44 · Dec 5, 2017

Have you posted a want ad in the classifieds on the forum?

Other sources to try:

George Dye (at David Carroll's) for old Smith parts, sight blades, etc.

"Aonepawninc" http://stores.ebay.com/aonepawninc
has a bunch of old S&W parts for sale. I just ordered a complete hammer for my pre model 30 from them. They are very customer oriented and have very reasonable prices. 1/10/16

Dave Bennett: Parts and guns from 1900 up to 1970's.
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: www.22ammobox.com

David Clements - Clements Custom Guns
PH: 276-238-8761
2766 Mt. Zion Rd.
Woodlawn, VA 24381
[email protected]
Clements Custom Guns

Jack First: Large selection of Pre- and Post-WWII parts. Sells working
parts to FFL dealers only.
Phone: 605-343-9544
Reproduced firing pins for 22/32 Kit Gun and HFT

Gun Parts Corp: Successor to Numrich Arms; many guns parts.
226 Williams Lane, West Hurley, NY 12491
Phone: 845-679-2417
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: Gun Parts & Firearm Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts

Jim Horvath: Many parts for all S&W's (large and small) from 1860 up;
can reproduce parts.
e-Mail: [email protected]

Jeff Lee: Lee's Gun Parts (an extensive supply of gun parts, including S&W)Mike who works for Lee has 45 M25 barrels.
(Open to the public on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays).
3401 W. Pioneer, Suite 2, Irving, TX 75061
Phone: 972-790-0773
400 Bad Request

Jan Matlega: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W hand-ejectors.
Mail Address: 528 Eddy Glover
New Britain, CT 06053
Phone: 860-229-6872

Poppert's Gun Parts: Poppert's Gun Parts Main Menu
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: [email protected]

Charlie Pate: Provides screws (original & reproduction) for S&W Tip-ups and Top-breaks; author of books and articles on S&W guns.
Phone: 703-533-8057
e-Mail: [email protected]

Phil Saccacio: Phone: 540-456-6405
e-Mail: [email protected]

Dave Szilagy: Manufactures parts for older S&W's.
Mail Address: 3107 Electric, Lincoln Park, MI 48146
e-Mail: [email protected]

Mike Veilleux: Guns and Gun Parts
All Parts inc. for Pre- and Post-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 413-732-9938
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: Guns n Parts - New and Used Guns Bought and Sold.

S&W Parts; antique and new
[email protected]
Ph: 352 394-7412

wileybelch · Dec 6, 2017

Hondo:
What are you referring to '#1below'? My trigger has only TWO PINS plus the hole for pivoting the trigger itself. Most of the photos I've seen, including the reference photo to the Model 686-3 trigger in FAQs, have three pins. Does that make my trigger an 'early' style? If so, then the Model 10 torsion spring won't work? It's a little hard to follow the discussion by wiregrassguy for an alternate spring arrangement. By the way, my hand does NOT have the little 'humpback' bulge on the rear surface. My hand is pure straight, no humpback!
Why is it so hard to find engineering drawings for revolvers produced by the hundreds of thousands??!!!!
Still don't know which spring parts to look for - Brownell's doesn't seem to carry anything prior to the Model 10.

A few minutes later...
Just went to ebay.com to follow up your suggestion. When I did a search on 'forged trigger' I got several hits on S&W triggers. The trigger offered by Parts_123 gives nice photos of my trigger's TWO pin arrangement. Note however the serrated trigger in the ebay photo, my trigger is smooth as a baby's b___. Nonetheless, this 'forged trigger' photo is what I have (notice, there are not three pins). Now, how do I fix the hand spring issue for this trigger??? If you do this search on ebay.com (don't need to logon), you should get the same list I got.

A few more minutes later...
In Google, search 'Smith and Wesson Model 10'. There is a Wikipedia entry that has an excellent photo of the trigger mechanism of the Model 10 that looks just like my Hand Ejector's TWO pin trigger. Are we getting close to fixing the hand spring?

Hondo44 · Dec 6, 2017

wileybelch said:
Hondo:
What are you referring to '#1below'? My trigger has only TWO PINS plus the hole for pivoting the trigger itself. Most of the photos I've seen, including the reference photo to the Model 686-3 trigger in FAQs, have three pins. Does that make my trigger an 'early' style? If so, then the Model 10 torsion spring won't work? It's a little hard to follow the discussion by wiregrassguy for an alternate spring arrangement. By the way, my hand does NOT have the little 'humpback' bulge on the rear surface. My hand is pure straight, no humpback!
Why is it so hard to find engineering drawings for revolvers produced by the hundreds of thousands??!!!!
Still don't know which spring parts to look for - Brownell's doesn't seem to carry anything prior to the Model 10.

#1 below = "The 1st style hand (with no hammer block) has two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the front of the trigger with a lever to tension the hand (one pin hole just below the trigger pivot pin hole)."

If you have two pins you have style #3 trigger. The torsion spring is correct.

Don't worry about the hump on the hand, they vary, some are straight like yours and is not related to which spring you need.

Is there any reason for you to suspect that your hand or trigger are not original to the gun?

Below are the two photos referenced in my three styles of triggers in post #6. Does your sideplate have a hammer block mounted in it?
If so which of these is it like?

MP%20Target%20Model%20and%20Side%20Plate_zpsqaxxila1.jpg

Photo by Driftwood Johnson

MampP%20Round%20Butt%20%20and%20Side%20Plate_zpsokrlv3pb.jpg

Photo by Driftwood Johnson

wileybelch · Dec 6, 2017

Dearest Hondo:
Thanks for all your effort.
It forced me to do research on S&W revolvers I would never have done if this 'little' glitch hadn't occurred when trying to renovate an old Hand Ejector.
I have found the fix, but there are still unanswered questions.
First, the fix. It seems I have a trigger that does NOT use a torsion spring. Instead, it is fitted with a 'hand lever' device that is used to put tension on the hand. I found this when connecting pictures with videos of these early revolvers (particularly S&W 1917 N frame). In my case, the hand lever wasn't recognized because it was stuck to the rebound push rod in the trigger effectively hiding it as part of the push rod. Closer inspection found the 'hand lever' and it was trivial to re-install the hand once you knew what to look for. Oh, happy day!
For the record, there is no hammer block on this revolver. Could the trigger be a substitute? certainly. That's probably why nobody wanted to bid on this revolver on Gunbroker. But I wanted to learn more about the Hand Ejector family, so I bid anyway (knowing I could cry on the S&W Forum for help). Basically, the revolver was not damaged, though roughly refinished, and the insides were modestly rusted but no broken parts. The last patent date on the barrel was Dec 1914 so that helped assign its birthday. Could this trigger be a cannibal from a 1917? seems like it from the style of trigger, hand, and levers.
Now that it's cleaned up and oiled, I'm on the lookout for a set of grips and a foray into the world of barrel restoration using a liner.

I am sincerely obliged.

Hondo44 · Dec 6, 2017

The trigger is the 1st style I describe above. It is the correct trigger for a gun of a vintage pre dating either of the side plate hammer blocks. It may have been replaced at some time but it's the correct style. The 1917 does use the same style hand lever/spring in the trigger.

But, it should only have one pin in the vicinity of the trigger mounting pin hole. That's what was confusing to me when you indicated your trigger had two pin holes.

handejector · Dec 6, 2017

If the OP would post pics of his trigger AND inside of the sideplate, at least one game of "20 Questions" could be ended.

No matter what, if it is a 20s gun, it does not use the torsion spring for the hand.

Hand Ejector torsion sping install

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