Post war ejector rod

chiefdave

chiefdave

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After taking pictures of some post war M&P's for another member I noticed that the early 1948 S prefix short action had the knurled rod instead of the barrel type. Was this change made in conjunction with the switch to the short action hammer?
 
The knurled extractor rod tips seem to have started on M&Ps shipped in early-mid 1947, at around S88xxxx. But I list a few with slightly higher SNs (in the low S90xxxx range) which still have the barrel-shaped knobs. Could be just S&W using up older parts in inventory. For sure, some of the K-series revolvers produced in early-mid 1947 used the knurled tip rods, starting around SN K46xx.
 
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The barrel shaped knobs are just left over pre war/wartime inventory. There was a long transition period to the knurled rod and no rhyme or reason when one was used instead of the other. In fact we see this transition on all models. Early number post war K-22s are often found with knurled rods while later examples will have barrel knobs.

It appears to be the infamous "bottom of the bin" phenomenon where new parts are dumped on top of the old style parts. When the parts on top are used up, the old parts start being used again, and of course on very likely higher numbered guns.
 
DWalt said:
The knurled extractor rod tips seem to have started on M&Ps shipped in early-mid 1947, at around S88xxxx. But I list a few with slightly higher SNs (in the low S90xxxx range) which still have the barrel-shaped knobs. Could be just S&W using up older parts in inventory. For sure, the K-series revolvers produced in early-mid 1947 used the knurled tip rods, starting around SN K46xx.
Click to expand...
My K22 #4339, shipped 9-23-1947 has the so called LERK. Big Larry
 
larryofcc said:
My K22 #4339, shipped 9-23-1947 has the so called LERK. Big Larry
Click to expand...

I have in my notes that the highest known K-22 having an extractor rod with a knob is SN K 7548 which shipped in 12/47. Anything between that and K 46xx could theoretically have either type of rod.
 
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On a side note pre war M&P snubs do not have the barrel rod end as it would have shortened the ejector stroke,
my guess is at some point someone noted it would be cheaper and easier to eliminate it altogether .

Also you will notice the guns that have elector rod ends have a matching cut under the barrel to clear the rod end.
using an ejector rod on a gun without the barrel cut will bend the rod.
 
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Engine49guy said:
On a side note pre war M&P snubs do not have the barrel rod end as it would have shortened the ejector stroke,
my guess is at some point someone noted it would be cheaper and easier to eliminate it altogether .
Click to expand...

Excellent footnote to this issue.

Straight rods began with the 1st M&P snubs in 1933 and 1st 38 Regulation Police snubs in 1936 where it was necessary to retract flush into the yoke rod hole with the font surface to function reasonably.

And I agree that after the war it became a no-brainer for both the rod change and avoiding the milled notch in the bottom of the barrel for all models, welcomed by S&W post war cost cutting gurus.
 
Does this mean LERK is also known as "barrel" type?

Just when I think I'm learning enough to at least sound intelligent around older S & W, I jump on the Forum and find I really don't seem to know squat! Even with SCSW 4th at my hands, I still find that you guys (and gals probably) that have been around, probably are the contributing source(s) to SCSW, seem to have so many other terminology descriptions that are applicable to things S&W.

Case in point is this thread that chiefdave started. My early post war K 22 Masterpiece (1946-early 47) with s/n K 905, has Call gold front site, short action, "fishhook" hammer, 1 line address and what I thought was known as LERK (Large Ejector Rod Knob). The revolver barrel has the milled slot for the knob to clear and remain straight.

So....is LERK officially correct when discussing with collectors, or is "barrel style" or "threaded" or ???

What is "knurled"? I had assumed that this meant the actual end of the ejector rod was simply knurled on a lathe while being manufactured (no threads, no separate piece).

Is "fishhook" hammer just a term for collectors and had a different factory nomenclature?

Bear with me Experts.....I'm not trying to horn in on your territory....just trying to learn as I go (before ALL the brain cells have faded away):D
 

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Please don't use LERK since the barrel shaped ejector rod is it is not even large, but rather medium in the history of the K frame line. Actually, it was the only knob used post-war, but often confusing in most conversations. The largest knob was the mushroom shaped that ended around 1927. I am sure that the fishhook hammer was collector terminology. I do not recall ever seeing the term mentioned in S&W catalogs.
 
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Charlie, I'm no expert but I have opinions ;). The terminology you mention developed in the collector community as a way of precisely identifying different engineering characteristics. I doubt the factory ever used "fishhook," LERK, MERK or other shorthand for their parts. And, although I learned the abbreviations here, there has been a movement to erase them and replace them with abbreviations more suitable to a like-minded group of collectors. The way I look at it is, if I can use terminology that IDs and communicates effectively, then I will. But, it certainly helps if everyone uses the same terms and doesn't make something up that makes no sense.


Here is what I learned:


MERK - mushroom shaped extractor rod knob. In the early days, the knob was removable. Later, it was machined along with the rod. The serrations around the knob are knurling.


LERK - large extractor rod knob. Some prefer barrel-shaped because large could be confused with mushroom because the mushroom knob is larger. The serrations machined on the knob is the knurling.


Straight rod - no knob on the end of the extractor rod but the end is knurled.


fishhook hammer - the early version of the "high speed hammer" (official S&W terminology on the shipping box) used on the short-throw action. Called fishhook due to the shape of the hammer tang. Could have been called something like tomcat's tail but fishhook caught on, I guess. Later versions of the high speed hammer had less pronounced elevation and curvature.


So, for what it's worth, that's my 2 picayunes. I'm not overly serious about the terminology. But, I can certainly understand how some collectors want no mistake in precision when they are contemplating shelling out big dollars on a firearm. That's why pictures or direct inspection are so important.
 
It would have been better if hanejector had nipped LERK in the bud by whipping the first member who wrote it with a cat-o-nine tails but it is wonderful that LERK is dying out on its own. In contrast, mushroom and barrel shaped do not have to be explained to those not in the click. Unless it is preceded by "only," knurled end describes all three vintages to some degree and for those not in the click certainly would not separate barrel shaped from a non-enlarged end. It is doubtful that no knob does either since the barrel shape is machined as part of the rod. Notice I did not have to explain what a non-enlarged extractor rod end was. (hint)

Depending on how high the tom holds his tail, "tom cat's tail" could describe a Speed Hammer better than fish hook. Perhaps there is a short tailed mutt that is known for wagging its tail held up in a cure? Dogs are loved here so think of the right breed and mutt's tail hammer might stick. On the other hand, we do not need another decade of squabbling over whether it is proper to write pencil barrel. I prefer trying to use the hammer names S&W used at the time a revolver was made.
 
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I agree, the LERK and SERK seem to have largely died off, and that is a good thing given that those acronyms don't do much except to increase the terminology confusion level. In the past some used SERK (small extractor rod knob) to mean the knurled rod tip, but that was clearly incorrect, as there was no knob at all on S&W extractor rods after 1947.

My nominee for the next term to go extinct - "Transition."
 
The "fishhook" hammer only refers to the 1st version K Target model High Speed hammer with wide spur, used until ~ the mid '50s.

The fixed sight K & N models used a narrow high speed hammer that does not have the same fishhook shape of the target hammer.
 
LERK should die an unceremonial death.

It initially and still only refers to a very specific situation:

When referring to early post war K22s some are found with barrel knobs (instead of straight rods with knurled tip) from left over pre war inventory. The barrel knobs can be found on all frame sizes in the post war transitional period.

Few understand that nuance of the term that the 'large' in LERK (for barrel knob) only means in relevance to the straight rod. It has no relevance to the pre war mushroom knob which of course is larger. That's why LERK should be hung at dawn.

Also early Post War K22s and all other transitional models will be found with the MADE IN USA line only, instead of the 4 line address on right front frame. These are known as "one liners".
 
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Nomenclature...nomenclature....

IMO members usually use the LERK abbreviation (Large Ejector Rod Tip) when discussing the early post war K-22's
(and a small amount of very early post war K-38's).

Since there were no mushroom ejector tip K-22s the point of confusing barrel rod end vs mushroom rod end may be moot.

One Liner is an easier way of saying One Line MADE IN USA.

Fishhook hammer is different because it is a nickname,

The official factory name for the early post war style hammer was "S&W High Speed Hammer"
 
Okay. Let's move back from the helpful discussion about terminology and address chiefdave's original question, which was:

chiefdave said:
After taking pictures of some post war M&P's for another member I noticed that the early 1948 S prefix short action had the knurled rod instead of the barrel type. Was this change made in conjunction with the switch to the short action hammer?
Click to expand...

No. The change order from management to eliminate the enlarged rod end (barrel shape) on the M&P was issued on October 4, 1946. This change was not immediately implemented, probably due to a large inventory of the older rods and notched barrels.

On revolvers with barrel lengths longer than 2", the single diameter rod does not seem to show up until the S874xxx range. The lowest number in my database of nearly 3,000 guns is S874114, and that gun shipped in February, 1947. I show quite a number of 5" examples in the S874xxx range with the newer rod design. However, the enlarged rod end still shows up on some guns in the S876xxx and S877xxx ranges. By S879xxx they are pretty much gone, although an oddity or two show up in the number ranges above S882xxx. I have even found one in the S903xxx range, but that's the highest number I've located.

Note: some time ago an M&P bearing serial number S907854 with the old style rod showed up here on the Forum. However, it turned out that it had undergone a barrel transplant. The barrel was serialized in the S845xxx range, so it wasn't an exception to the rule. It simply got the correct rod for the older barrel when the aftermarket work was done.
 
chiefdave said:
After taking pictures of some post war M&P's for another member I noticed that the early 1948 S prefix short action had the knurled rod instead of the barrel type. Was this change made in conjunction with the switch to the short action hammer?
Click to expand...

So to make it abundantly clear, the short answer is no, there is no correlation between the barrel knob rod usage to S&W's change to the "Speed Lock" action (the short action) in any K or N frame models.
But close, only separated by 6 months for the 38 K frame as Jack posted above.

The change to the Speed Lock is one of few cases when there was little to no transition period, like the new PW hammer block safety. While the rod change was strung out sporadically over a long time like most S&W minor changes that depended on exhausting the old part supplies.

The only correlation to the Speed Lock action introduction are of course the four early high speed hammer styles: K target (fishhook), K fixed sight/N fixed sight (same style, diff size), and N med. target which continues to this day on all N models if the .500" 'full' target hammer is not substituted.

The K frame K22 "Speed Lock" action guns began with the K22/40 2nd Model/1st Model Masterpiece in 1940. Therefore when re-introduced after the war in 1946 as the K22 2nd Model Masterpiece beginning in its own serial # range at K101, (there is no PW Transitional K22 model), which can be referred to as the Model of 1946, and 1st Pre Model 17.

Similar to the way the K38 w/Speed Lock action began April 1948 at #S990184 (soon to start over at C1 the same year), can be referred to as the Model of 1948. and 1st Pre Model 10.

Or the way N frames with Speed Lock action are referred to as the Models of 1950, 1st pre Model 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. 26, and 27. The Pre Model 28 came in 1956.

Note: The post war I frame did not receive the "Speed Lock" action. The completion of post war changes to the I frames are known as the Models of 1953.
 
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