Very odd .45ACP HE?

hkcavalier

hkcavalier

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Hey all,

I normally don't throw my hands up and give up on a gun I'm researching, but here I am.

I'm about to purchase a prewar N frame but am stumped. Seller has shown a grainy picture and answered a couple questions. Here's what I know:

It's a fixed-sight N frame, 6.5" barrel, with British proofs. Gold medallion grips. So far, I figure it's a WWI British contract gun.

But it has a MERK, shrouded ejector, and 1 pin in the shroud (not a Triple Lock). Redone in .45ACP at some point. Seller states he's shot it with half moon clips.

I'm definitely buying it as the price is right for a prewar N frame, even a mutt, but what am I really looking at? Trying to get the S/N out of him and see if the cylinder and barrel match.
 
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Try researching 1915 British .455 2nd Model revolvers. There was a run after the Triplelocks that look much like a commercial non-Triplelock Hand Eject model.


I once owned one that was converted to use .45acp by having the rear cylinder face shaved to accept .45acp on moonclips. It still had the original s/n matching checkered grips with gold medallions.


I sometimes wish I had it back, and the fellow I sold it to was tickled to death for me to sell it to him.


As the original factory s/n was stamped on the rear cylinder face it may be difficult to determine if the cylinder is matching if it has been shaved to accept .45acp on moonclips.


As a sidenote most likely you would be able to use .45 auto rim ammo and cases for handloads if for some reason you prefer a more traditional rimmed cartridge versus moonclipped .45acp.


The shrouded ejector rod thing you stated seems odd though. Are you absolutely certain it is shrouded and a non-triplelock? Possibly a rebarrelled 1915 2nd Model using a barrel with an ejector shroud? If that is the case then the barrel s/n quite possibly won't match unless it was stamped to match when installed.


Pics please if/when they become available.


Dale
 
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Every example I researched had a non-shrouded ejector rod (2nd) or was a Triple Lock. I am starting to think this is a replacement barrel that was milled out to accept a MERK from the original since I've never seen a MERK and shrouded ejector together on an N frame.

I wish the pics were better, but interesting old S&Ws come up so rarely in my neck of the woods I'm willing to take a chance.
 
hkcavalier said:
Every example I researched had a non-shrouded ejector rod (2nd) or was a Triple Lock. I am starting to think this is a replacement barrel that was milled out to accept a MERK from the original since I've never seen a MERK and shrouded ejector together on an N frame.

I wish the pics were better, but interesting old S&Ws come up so rarely in my neck of the woods I'm willing to take a chance.
Click to expand...

I don't see any pictures. :(
 
Here's the best one of the bunch.

file.php
 
hkcavalier said:
Here's the best one of the bunch.

file.php
Click to expand...

Most definitely unusual.

Whoever did the work to accept the mushroom style ejector rod looks to have done an excellent job.

I wonder if it might have been a somewhat common conversion back in the day? Maybe if shrouded barrels were easy to procure at one time?

Maybe a salvaged barrel from a damaged British .455 contract Triplelock? Wouldn't that be something if the barrel was marked with British proof/acceptance stamps and had a s/n in the known British Triplelock s/n range! Seems doubtful without having the second pin in the forward end of the ejector rod shroud though, indicating a later post-WWI style shrouded barrel.

Definitely more overall pics are in order. I am also leaning towards the printed value/grading chart being a little on the high side even at $750 considering it has most likely been modified to accept .45acp...…..and then there is the barrel thing. Then again, it might make for a great conversation piece and that might be worth several more bucks to the right person(s).

It does look nice though, doesn't it.

Dale
 
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"Trying to get the S/N out of him and see if the cylinder and barrel match."

I think that is the key. Most likely a .455 Second Model with a First Model barrel, or (even less likely) with a bored-out .44 TL or Third Model part.
 
Didn't S&W make some commercial .45s in the 1930s with LERKs and shrouded ejectors? Perhaps the barrel is from that bunch.

Eh, overthinking here. In a couple days I should have all these "what ifs" answered.
 
hkcavalier said:
Didn't S&W make some commercial .45s in the 1930s with LERKs and shrouded ejectors? Perhaps the barrel is from that bunch.

Eh, overthinking here. In a couple days I should have all these "what ifs" answered.
Click to expand...

I too was wondering about the possibility of similar looking later .45cal barrels with ejector rod shrouds.

Surely S&W made a few...……...yes?

Dale
 
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Nice gun and good catch!

It has a Triple Lock barrel for sure! Notice the front locking bolt in front of the shroud, it's not round! Because it has the 'wishbone' double locking bolt of the TL; locks the front of the rod and the front of the yoke. The 2nd pin in the shroud is just not showing in the photo. The yoke bolt has to have been cut off to fit the 2nd model yoke w/o the TL locking cam plate.

The cut out for the knob is the standard TL barrel knob cut out. The mushroom knob on this 2nd model 455 has been turned down to fit the TL cut out.

The barrel didn't have to be bored to 45 because most likely it's a 455 TL barrel.

Showing bottom leg of the TL 'wishbone' (front/middle locking bolt) protruding from the rear of the shroud:

IMG_3344_zpsaeee4dba.jpg

Photo credit: bmcgilvray


Showing TL middle lock Cam plate on yoke in next two photos:

triplelockcrane_zpsbbcf8c9e.jpg

Photos by Driftwood Johnson

triplelockhardenedlatchpiece_zps510369af.jpg

Photos by Driftwood Johnson

I'm currently making a TL in 45 S&W Special (a rimmed 45 ACP length case, the original TL cartridge for the Army trials of 1906) out of a 2nd model 455. I have the TL 455 barrel and the TL special yoke with middle locking cam for the 3rd lock. I'll use an extractor rod with barrel knob from the 30's to fit the shroud since I'm using the original cyl.
 
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hkcavalier said:
Hey all,

I normally don't throw my hands up and give up on a gun I'm researching, but here I am.

I'm about to purchase a prewar N frame but am stumped. Seller has shown a grainy picture and answered a couple questions. Here's what I know:

It's a fixed-sight N frame, 6.5" barrel, with British proofs. Gold medallion grips. So far, I figure it's a WWI British contract gun.

But it has a MERK, shrouded ejector, and 1 pin in the shroud (not a Triple Lock). Redone in .45ACP at some point. Seller states he's shot it with half moon clips.

I'm definitely buying it as the price is right for a prewar N frame, even a mutt, but what am I really looking at? Trying to get the S/N out of him and see if the cylinder and barrel match.
Click to expand...

I was looking at that local ad and scratching my head over that one too...
 
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Look closely at the pics I have provided.

When I look closely at the OP's pic I do not see two pins on the front end of the extractor shroud as one would expect on a Triplelock barrel/shroud.

Also the forward end of the OP's ejector rod cutout looks more angular to allow for geometry of the "mushroom" shaped ejector rod, versus the more rounded forward ejector rod cutout shown in the .455 Triplelock pic.

Maybe it's just the quality of the OP's pic and/or just my eyes playing tricks on me? I am sure better quality pics may show the second pin is there as well as a curve instead of an angular forward end of the ejector rod cutout, but for the likes of me when I zoom in on the OP's pic I cannot see a second pin or pinhole, and the forward end knob cutout definitely looks more angular to me.

Dale
 

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    455 triplelock pins and forward ejector rod cutout curvature_LI.jpg
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    OP's single pin and angular rod cutout.jpg
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If it's really a TL I'll be overjoyed. I don't see the frame cutout for the 3rd lock. Seller hasn't sent better pictures, but we'll meet Monday. I think I can wait. Thanks for all the investigative work gents.
 
tenntex32 said:
Look closely at the pics I have provided.

When I look closely at the OP's pic I do not see two pins on the front end of the extractor shroud as one would expect on a Triplelock barrel/shroud.

Also the forward end of the OP's ejector rod cutout looks more angular to allow for geometry of the "mushroom" shaped ejector rod, versus the more rounded forward ejector rod cutout shown in the .455 Triplelock pic.

Maybe it's just the quality of the OP's pic and/or just my eyes playing tricks on me? I am sure better quality pics may show the second pin is there as well as a curve instead of an angular forward end of the ejector rod cutout, but for the likes of me when I zoom in on the OP's pic I cannot see a second pin or pinhole, and the forward end knob cutout definitely looks more angular to me.

Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,

The mushroom knob has a two step milled cut in the barrel; deeper for the front end and shallow for the back end of the knob. I only see one shallow cut in the photo of the OP's hybrid gun, indicative of an unmodified cut and the original TL barrel knob cut.

Both milling cuts are angled on the front end, the TL front angle being a factor of the curved front end of the rod slot cut in the shroud.

Well, we'll see with new photos on Monday.
 
Well I won't be able to solve the mystery after all. Seller showed a picture where the S/N had been polished right off the butt. You can see where the grips overhang about a tenth of an inch in one of the shots.

I still don't know if it's a TL or not since I didn't ask for more after I saw the dealbreaker.
 
Too bad but no worries, it can't be a TL.

We'd see the cam plate cut out in the front of the frame; even in the photo you posted it would be clearly visible:

IMG_3344_zpsaeee4dba.jpg

Photo credit: bmcgilvray
 
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hkcavalier said:
Well I won't be able to solve the mystery after all. Seller showed a picture where the S/N had been polished right off the butt. You can see where the grips overhang about a tenth of an inch in one of the shots.

I still don't know if it's a TL or not since I didn't ask for more after I saw the dealbreaker.
Click to expand...

If the serial number is stamped on the grip frame, under the grips, that would be legal.
 
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