Just got to photograph this one. I have heard of the “Not English Make” but no idea why it is stamped on this revolver.

Also quite a few inspection marks. If anyone can explain, please do!

Kevin

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Some more photos.

Kevin

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I can't give you much info on the markings but I'm pretty certain it's be reblued in it's long and useful lifetime.

Those are British commercial proofs according to the Rule of 1925, which were required to be applied before a gun could be sold on the commercial market.

So they are from the time after the gun was retired from British service, but likely before WW II.

The nitro proofs are on the barrel; the mark above the trigger guard is the only one I can’t positively identify right now.

These are cool guns that have done some traveling!

I had one that was similarly marked. We supplied these to Great Britain under Lend Lease and didn’t want them back after the war.

GB was basically broke at that point and want to sell these to foreign markets (many came back to the US commercial market). British law required they go through proofing before they could be sold. You’ll find British proofs on the barrel, frame, and usually on the cylinder between each flute. “Not English Made” was required at that time on guns that we sold commercially but not produced in GB. They sure were stamp happy!

The eagle head/# stamps are from US inspectors who worked in the plants when the guns were originally manufactured. They verified that the guns were up to US standards and the parts were interchangeable between guns.

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I have one of the WWI British (.455 Auto) versions of the Colt M1911 and it has a similar stamping on the frame by the trigger guard (it always sort of reminded me of a penguin), in addition to the typical British crossed pennants. Must be some British military-related stamping, but I do not know any more about it than that.

So then the British proofs were likely applied right after the war. I’m not too familiar with the 45’s. Would this have been one of the 20,000 or so that we sold to the British in July 1940? Somewhat before official Lend-Lease. I seem to remember Lee once explaining about those.

We would have to know the serial number to determine when it was most likely sent to Great Britain, however I suspect it is a WW1 supplied Model 1917 and the proofs were applied when the gun became surplus to the military and was sold to a British dealer who then had the proofs done to make the gun eligible for sale in Great Britain. It later came to the US, perhaps when these guns were declared illegal for civilians to own
in Britain. Ed.

A WWI era US revolver sold/given to the British during WWII. The eagle's head by the trigger guard is a US inspectors stamp.

I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC.

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SWCA: 3154
SWHF: 552

I think your barrel has been cut. To 4.5 inch? Someone discuss the front sight, too.

Good that you are getting the letter; please share the results.

A Sept. 1941 ship date and British stamps is rather unusual. You also may be getting WW I and WW II mixed up; Remington served as a conduit for revolvers to Britain in WW I, but had nothing to do with that in WW II.

In Sept. 1941, the British Purchasing Commission had been receiving regular large batches of .38 M&P’s for some time, soon to be transitioned to Lend-lease. It’s hard to see what the British would have wanted with an obsolete-calibered gun like yours at that time.

PS: I find the British proofs on your gun quite interesting. They are Birmingham commercial proofs, but look like no proof set I’ve seen on any military surplus revolver of any caliber, being oddly specific especially with the bullet weight. Have you deciphered the view mark to ascertain when it was proofed? I can’t make out the letter code (left quadrant in crossed sceptres).

David Carroll recently sold a British proofed 44 3rd and gave me the shipping information on that one. As soon as I get the letter I’ll update the post on this one.

And it has been shortened to 4.5”. It’s all numbers matching including the magnas.

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SWCA: 3154
SWHF: 552

Serial number from the base of the grip frame is 121350.

Kevin

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Dive into it. I think you're seeing 1904 Birmingham nitro proof on the barrel but I'm no expert in anyone's opinion, including my own.

PROOF MARKS PROOF MARKS - PDF Free Download

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OP's gun has London Proof House proof marks.
The bbl proofs are Definitive Proof (BP),,View Inspection Proof,, and Nitro Proof

They are in Circles because the firearm is 'Not English Make'

If the proofing had been done at Birmingham Proof House, their marks would also have been inside circles.
(Birmingham proof marks are seen much more often on English surplused firearms.

Maybe they were made to do the dirty work of the mass of surplus arms that must have gone on to the commercial market and needed proofing in the post war years.
London Proof House always carried kind of a higher class distinction though the two work under the same Proof Laws and regs.

I believe the Crown mark on the right side by the 'Not English Make' marking is a poor View proof marking. It would normally be a Crown/V
The V in a circle, same 'View Mark' as on the bbl.

The 'Not English Make' marking was a proof house marking used on,,obviously,,none English made firearms,,but only those that did not meet English Proof law demands at the time they were being sold, resold, or needed reproofing after repair.
In use starting in 1925. Taken out of use in 1954/55 with another change in proof laws and markings.

Some other European country's manditory proof laws were acceptible to the Brit Proof Laws, and those imports, resale did not need to be proofed.
USA having no Mfg or Gov't run Proof system that the Brits find acceptible makes any USA mfg firearm a must Proof firearm before it can be sold commercially.
Even if it's coming back from a War.

The eagle head over S9 was a final factory inspection mark to indicate military acceptance. The same eagle head over various S numbers can be found on Colt 1911's from WWI.

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Mike H

1917s WWII Era British proof marked: About 20,000 1917s were sold to Britain and will have British proof marks, Post #11 here: Model 1917 odd barrel markings - can you help?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

[QUOTE=LLOYD17;140664937]I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC. [/QUOTE

Unusual revolver befitting an Airdale. Glad a skimmer didn't get it.

Just looked again and found proof marks on the cylinder between the chambers.

Kevin

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I purchased one at a Auction with English Proof Marks different from yours, does not have the notenglishmake, it does have a inventory number stamped on the left side and SN#7963. From what I have found out they are from the Lend Lease Program and from private owners.
Would be a great story to find out how they made it back here and on this Forum.

Yes, I know about that committee. But that was a year earlier than the gun discussed. In fact, even by the time of that ad in November 1940, the Battle of Britain was over, the danger of invasion passed, and this private effort was allowed to proceed more as a gesture of moral support. Some donated guns actually ended up with the home guard, but most went into storage in Britain.

Besides, the whole idea was to collect and supply guns beyond the factories’ capacity to provide.

I cannot see this context relating to a gun shipped new from the factory much later.

On closer inspection, after reading and rereading this thread and links, what I took to be scratches on the upper corner of the cylinder opening by the rear sight is actually a partially stamped flaming bomb.

The serial number put it late in 1918 so consistent with the flaming bomb.

Kevin

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I just found this number bracketed by two revolvers that went to the Post Office.

Can anyone say when it was built?

Kevin

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1917 Year of manufacturer site here:

U.S. Military Dates of Manufacture

Click on 1917 S&W and plug in your serial #

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you, it shows October 1918.

In the book “Springfield Research Service: Serial numbers of U.S. Martial Arms. Volume 4 1995 Edition” that number did not show up but was bracketed by two numbers that both were much later and I could not wrap my mind around the US Property Mark’s with a date in he late 20s.

Kevin

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Hi Kevin where did you see October ? In my search it only appears the year.
Regards, Ray

That website gives the year on one line followed by the month on the next line of print.

Yes, there is a flaming bomb. You can also see a broad arrow. I can't make out anything else but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a crown, etc. there too.

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Thanks Jack I saw it now, regards, Ray

Jack:
Are you interpreting the scratch (red arrow) as a broad arrow? Or is there something else I'm missing?

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My question also. When I get home I will look closer at the frame.

Kevin

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My father was a member of a Hunt/Gun club in Webster, Pennsylvania. He and some of the other club members
took part in the donation of firearms to the Britts. His personal donation was a .32-20 caliber pump action Remington rifle.
~~~~ {Back to Webster, PA} ~~~
He hunted bear, deer, pheasant, rabbit, and who knows what else in the Appalachian Mountains during the seasons.
Per my mother, hunting season was a big, big event for him and his co-members.
-Donald

It's a scratch. Way too high for the broad arrow location which is lower down by the knuckle/grip frame hump.

See post #3 here: Triple Lock WWI British Markings

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Looked there, all over the frame, no broad arrow of any sort.

Kevin

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The different combinations of proof mark, import, export, inspection, unit, etc. stampings is almost endless!

For examples:

If the gun arrived thru official military purchasing channels, was actually issued to a unit, was sold thru official channels, exported, etc. it's most likely to have all possible stampings.

If the gun left the battlefield in a duffel bag and made the journey back across the big pond to the USA, it would have a minimum of stampings.

If the gun was sold on the civilian market in the USA and purchased by the Civilian Purchasing Comm. on behalf of the Brits, it was imported in England thru civilian channels, not military, or sold by S&W directly to an English retail distributor, again the stampings on each would vary accordingly.

It would be interesting to see how many variations there could possibly be. Personally I've seen many variations just on this forum.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Did the broad arrow sho acceptance by the British military? I do not think this revolver saw British service. It may have made it overseas and somehow been brought into England and sold but I do not believe it was ever a British military revolver.

Kevin

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Yes.

The scratch sure looked like the somewhat curved version of the Broad Arrow to me. I'll have to magnify it and look again.

Has anyone seen the sideways crown on sitting on ?? before? Or am I imagining that too? (See below)

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Not imagining it, that's a sideways crown.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Yes.

Therefore you might find this thread informative:

Model 1917 odd barrel markings - can you help?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I think it's a bald guy waving his arms behind two large pumpkins .... sorry ....



But seriously, I think it has to be a partial one of the old British proofs, crown over circle, which would go with the NOT ENGLISH MAKE per this list:

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And to nitpick one more minor point: Strictly speaking, the broad arrow was the British military property mark.

The set of acceptance stamps, consisting of a crown with inspector's codes and Enfield identifier below, is usually found underneath the broad arrow in the same location at the back of the frame.

However, as mentioned before, the stamping was not 100% consistent. Also, while the British phased out the practice in the course of the war, many officers still purchased sidearms privately, as had been required prior to the war, so there may be "military" guns not marked at all.

Thanks, S&Wchad, for identifying the eagle head stamp near the trigger guard. I puzzled over it on mine, looked as someone else posted, kinda like a penguin or a ghost!

The SN from my source (oldguns,net) shows date of Oct of 1918, which I guess is why the ordnance flaming bomb is on there?

Lots of informed people on this board.

That, is an understatement!

Every day I come to this forum I learn something.

Thank you all for sharing what has been posted so far. Lots to digest and try to put into place with this revolver.

And, it came wrapped in a holster, M4 by Milwaukee Saddlery rated 1944, but the Sgt who put his name and service number on the holster was too young for service in WWII. So, another mystery.

Kevin

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I agree, which may be the reason some marks are faint...like the flaming bomb, the crown, and maybe the "Not made....".

Looks like aggressive buffing.

Correct, WWI 1917s are marked "GHS" in a circle, (Gilbert H. Stewart), Gov’t inspector, left side frame up near the hammer: serial number range 1 to at least 43894.

Later guns are marked with a flaming bomb on upper rear left side of frame, beginning c. #42000 for the duration.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Mine is a 54XXX Apr 1918 and has no GHS mark on it, I assumed because it was made before the Govt took over and began inspecting them...does have the in-house eagle head mentioned above.

I'm certainly no expert as an owner of only one, but have seen several videos on 1917s, and I was looking for the GHS, and several of the ones I saw didn't have it.

Makes sense.

As one loop seems to be at a different elevation than the other, I am going to guess it's the CP (intertwined) surmounted by a Crown, poorly struck / partially obliterated. They were fond of using that one.

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As stated above the only thing that can be said for certain is that the revolver was commercially proofed at the London proof house from 1925 to 1954/55.
Most of these British marked Model 1917's that I have seen have been proofed in London and not Birmingham. The only British military marking I have seen is one or two guns marked with a crown over AM for Air Ministry, these guns ending up with the RAF. Even though 10,000 of the 20,000 M1917 revolvers purchased in June 1940 went to the Air Ministry - the other 10,000 ended up in the Middle East - AM marked examples are very rare. I have never seen one with a broad arrow ownership mark or any Enfield inspection/acceptance markings and believe that I never will as like the 500,000 Model 1917 Rifles that the U.K. purchased in June 1940, these were not marked either. The exception to this is the two inch wide band of red paint that was applied to the forewood of the rifles to show they were .300 (.30/06) caibre and not .303. I have seen M1917 revolvers with the vestige of red paint on the barrel also.
So personally I think the OP's revolver is one of the 20,000 purchased in June 1940, but without the AM marking or the remnant of red paint this
is speculative.
Regards
AlanD

So far, here is what I have been able to find out about this revolver and holster. It was, at one time, owned by Sgt Warren Frederick. Sgt Frederick was a Korean War veteran who served at an Artillery base in Texas during the Korean War. He passed away in January of 2019. About 5 years earlier, his family decided to move him in to a private apartment. Because of this moves his firearms were sold at auction. I acquired this earlier in 2020. His daughters are not gun savvy and could not provide any information on either revolver or holster. I talked to one of his friends, also a KW veteran who believes Sgt Frederick purchased the holster and revolver during his stay in Texas.

Unfortunately, that is all I have found out and it appears the well has been run dry.

Kevin

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