Model 1917 odd barrel markings - can you help?

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I was at my LGS this evening and wondered by the used guns case. Sitting there was a Model 1917 on consignment for an asking price of $850, so I took a look. All seemed as it should be except these odd-to-me barrel markings.

The serial number is 1642XX and the barrel is marked on the bottom "UNITED STATES PROPERTY", so it's in the right range for an Army gun. The serial numbers match on the bottom of the barrel, the butt of the frame, and the cylinder, with there also being a start on the cylinder (factory service?). The production numbers match on the yoke and the part of the frame opposite the yoke. So it looks like all the parts are original. The grips look original, but there's a quarter inch chunk out of the front left side grip.

Then there's the markings on the right side of the barrel that have me flummoxed. The SCSW-4 says it should be "S&W D.A. 45". But this one has what looks like a sideways "VP" followed by a "PY", followed by ".45" .900", followed by "7 TONS". The photo below shows this all pretty clearly. Does this barrel marking make any sense to anyone?

The rest of the gun has what I would consider the normal dinks in the metal that would come from Army service use. I was so busy checking out all the marking that I forgot to look at the condition of the barrel! If it's the same as the condition of the chambers, it should be fine. The last thing is that three of the chambers were ever so slightly out of time, while the other three were fine.

Does this sound like something I should try to negotiate down and snap it up? I'm not into this model, so I'm clueless on current value. I'm assuming it's a shooter grade, unless these stampings put it in some rare category.

Thanks for the help!
 

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I believe that what you are identifying as "VP" is actually "NP" with the left vertical stroke of the letter N missing. That "NP" would stand for "Nitro Proof"

Not sure what the "PY" mark is - though to me those markings look more like a couple of dingbat characters or symbols rather than the letters PY.

The "45" is obviously the caliber and I'm guessing the ".900" stands for 9/10ths of an inch - the cartridge case length.

Looks like WWII British Lend-Lease proofs and markings to me.

$850 seems a little rich for a gun with half the chambers out of time, little finish left (judging by the photo of the barrel), and a big chunk broken out of one grip.
 
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BC38 said:
… Not sure what the "PY" mark is - though to me those markings look more like a couple of dingbat characters or symbols rather than the letters PY. ...
Click to expand...
It's an arm holding a sword over the NP. Usually it is in the same orientation as the cartridge designation / proof load (.45" .900" 7 TONS). Why it is "sideways" here I do not know. These marks show it was proofed in England. Most likely it was a Lend Lease revolver sent over when England was desperate for anything that would shoot.

The NP / Arm&Sword proofmark is poorly struck. I will see if I can locate a picture of a better example.

Edit to add:
I couldn't find a picture but I did find that the proof mark of an Arm Brandishing a Sword over "NP", indicates it was proofed in London.
I'm tired and I need to go to bed!

Edit again (10/03/2019):
I ran across this description of the mark as the Brits would describe it:
"... the letters N P surmounted by an Arm Dexter in Armour Embowered, holding a scimitar …"
 
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I think some of those guns saw battle in the hands of British special ops troops, like SOE and SAS. There's a photo of a SAS man sitting in the desert, holding what I believe is a US M-1917 .45. They also had Thompsons, so ammo wasn't a problem, and a SAS man could carry any handgun he wanted, provided it could be procured in the UK or taken from the enemy.

That gun looks to have too short a bbl. for a .455 S&W and the frame looks too big for a .38-200. (This also applies to your gun, of course!)

I've read that some M-1917 .45's were also supplied to pilots in the Indian Air Force, which was separate from the RAF. They'd probably fit canvas holsters made for Webley MK VI .455's.

The proofs you noted were applied when the gun was sold on the commercial market after W W II.

Until the nasty 1997 law, Britons could own handguns, although buying one took a lot of red tape. About 300,000 legal pistols were surrendered when the ban came. And others were stored in Belgium by the owners, who flew over to shoot their guns there.
 
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In addition to the more adventurous explanations for a 1917 Army with postwar commercial British proofs, it could have been imported during their desperate need for any and all firearms in early WW II.

It is much more common to see .38 S & W Victory Models here with this kind of proof marks, but unless your interests run toward these I agree $800 is high as you describe this one.
 
This is all pretty cool history info guys. Thanks very much for the lesson. That kind of history makes me want to have it just for that, but I'm going to resist. If the chambers were all in time, I might make a play. But the cost of getting the original parts built up again to get the gun in time with the original parts isn't worth it.
 
May be worth lettering if you pick it up. (never mind, it'll letter from 1918 or thereabouts...brain fart) I got this 44 3rd specifically because it had British proofs. There was a shipment in 1940 to Rem-UNC who were purchasing agents for the Brits but this one shipped in Sept 1941.

lloyd17-albums-1926-picture20638-76582f59-7806-4082-90d9-af24e820cabf.jpeg
 
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BC38 said:
Looks like WWII British Lend-Lease proofs and markings to me.
.....
Click to expand...

Jack Flash said:
.... Most likely it was a Lend Lease revolver sent over when England was desperate for anything that would shoot.
..
Click to expand...

All good identification. The London proofhouse, in contrast to Birmingham, did not use view marks until long after WW II, so dating the commercial proofing with any precision isn't possible.

Just one minor point: not everything the US sent to Britain was Lend-lease. In fact, when it came to revolvers, it took about eight months after the Lend Lease Act was passed in March 1941 before these were added to lent/leased goods, in form of S&W .38 revolvers marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY. The many various S&W revolvers that made it overseas before were purchased or in some cases donated.
 
France fell in May, 40.
330,000 Brit and French soldiers pushed into the sea at Dunkirk.
Battle of Britain beginning, invasion looked imminent.
Roosevelt ordered "surplus" arms to be sold(probably very cheaply) to Britain, including 20,000 Mod 1917s that were delivered between June and Sept.
See Pate's book, page 19

You guys never seem to remember this when a 1917 with Brit proofs shows up. Write it down. :D
 
Absalom mentioned donations.

After WWI many Model of 1917 Revolvers were sold off as surplus, thus many had made it into civilian hands.

After the evacuation from Dunkirk in 1940, where weapons and equipment of all types were abandoned in France, the Brits urgently needed firearms.

Ads such as the one below appeared in magazines in the US, appealing to the American public to send anything they might have to defend a British home. I expect a lot of M1917 revolvers were donated.
attachment.php
 
Absalom said:
Just one minor point: not everything the US sent to Britain was Lend-lease. In fact, when it came to revolvers, it took about eight months after the Lend Lease Act was passed in March 1941 before these were added to lent/leased goods, in form of S&W .38 revolvers marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY. The many various S&W revolvers that made it overseas before were purchased or in some cases donated.
Click to expand...
Exactly why I ID-ed this as Lend-Lease, because the OP said it was stamped United States Property.

HandEjector, good info about the surplus sales. The ones that were sold wouldn't have the US Property stamp, right? My understanding was that the UPS Property stamping was unique to Lend-Lease equipment - because it was technically only on loan/lease and still belonged to the US.
 
All the M1917 revolvers sold to the US during WWI were marked United States Property before they left the factory.

I'm sure the same was true for Colt Model of 1911 pistols too.
 
Hmmn, I guess I am confused.

I always thought that the ones that weren't part of Lend-Lease had the US Military butt stamping, but only the Lend-Lease guns got the US Property stamp - and that the same was true of the 38 M&Ps.

So is the US Property stamp being on ALL of them a feature unique to the 1917? Or were all the 38 M&Ps marked that way too?
 
BC38 said:
HandEjector, good info about the surplus sales. The ones that were sold wouldn't have the US Property stamp, right? My understanding was that the UPS Property stamping was unique to Lend-Lease equipment - because it was technically only on loan/lease and still belonged to the US.
Click to expand...
They DID have the "U.S. Property" on the underside of the barrel.


Jack Flash said:
All the M1917 revolvers sold to the US during WWI were marked United States Property before they left the factory.
Click to expand...
Correct. The US did not buy any Mod 1917s after 1919. The 20,000 guns sent to Britain were standard WW I vintage Mod 1917s pulled out of storage at RIA.
They also sent 500 .38 revolvers from the US Navy Mod 1899 contract and US Navy Mod 1902 contract. I have seen a few over the years with Brit proofs. I like it- the proofs show that they are BoB guns and were used in both WWs.
 
BC38 said:
So is the US Property stamp being on ALL of them a feature unique to the 1917? Or were all the 38 M&Ps marked that way too?
Click to expand...

The confusion arises from the fact that the 1917's mentioned by Lee were actual US military revolvers which did got the property stamp because of that, not anything having to do with the British or Lend-lease.

All US military-shipped .38 M&P's in .38 Special also received a property stamp, first the US NAVY, later the US PROPERTY (and a small number of 2" Victorys the UNITED STATES PROPERTY). Unstamped military specimen are accidental.

Now the Lend-lease M&P's were obviously destined for Britain, BUT they were not shipped to Britain, but legally property of the US Army, in the form of Hartford Ordnance, before they were processed by Lend-lease authorities. So they left the factory ordnance-stamped like the others.

Much is made of the "pretend to remain US property while everybody knew we were giving them away, wink-wink", but I've never found any contemporary evidence of anyone wasting mental energy on this back then. It was simply the legally prescribed procedure.
 
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Strictly speaking the British commercial proof marks, in this case London proof house, only show that the revolver passed through the proof house. It does not prove the gun has British military providence.
In the case of this example it is probable that it is one of the 20,000 purchased by the UK in June 1940 through the U.S. Steel Corp, which facilitated the transfer of ownership from the U.S. government to the British government. This was part of a huge - for the time - sale of 37 million dollars worth of military equipment including 900 odd 75mm guns and 500,000 M1917 rifles and 500 ex Navy S&W .38 hand ejectors. These goods were not paid for with British gold as is often erroneously reported.
Britain agreed to replace the items with new made goods which would be paid for by British overseas funds, to the exact dollar equivalent. I only recently came across this list of new made munitions, which was largely artillery and ammunition, no small arms from memory. This whole transaction was really a vehicle to get around the U.S. Neutrality Act, that was in force at the time.
In the case of the 20,000 M1917 revolvers that went into British service, these were spit 50/50 between the Air Ministry (used by the RAF) and Middle East Command. I have only seen a couple of photos of Air Ministry marked examples being the letters A and M with a small crown, perhaps not all issued to the Air Ministry were so marked? Some revolvers will be found with the vestige of red paint in the lettering on the barrel. This was applied to show the small arm was of a non standard (in British service) calibre.
If I were to see an Air Ministry marked pistol or one with the remains of the red paint on the barrel, I would be breaking the sound barrier in getting my wallet out of my back pocket!
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
 
Those are post 1954 commercial British Proof marks for the 45acp cartridge. Nothing to do with the UK Military.
The .900 is the case length in inches.
The 7 tons is the service pressure in English Tonnes. This mark is often followed with '/per inch sq'
The 'NP' Nitro Proof mark of the London Proof House is stamped sideways. The arm & sword/sabre are what some are seeing as a letter P.

Much of this has been mentioned above I think.

This is nothing more than the manditory British commercial proofing done to a firearm before it could be sold commercially in Britain.
Sometimes a gun had to be resubmitted for re-proofing if certain 'smithing work had been performed. So you would have additional markings. That's more often seen on elderly shotguns gone in for bbl work.
 
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