Help Identifying a Smith & Wesson Revolver with “Winchester OTO” Marking – Possible M

[glowe]

The 32-20 cartridge was named three different ways:

From 1899 until 1913 - 32 Winchester CTG. (left side of barrel)
From 1914 until 1922 - 32 W C.F. CTG (right side of barrel) between 111,000 & 113,000
From about 1922-23 until the end of production (1940) - 32-20 CTG. (right side of barrel)

The barrel is quite worn, plus the "C" has a very small gap on the right, but looks totally normal + wear & rust. Difference is that you are looking at just the bottom of the stamping and it is worn down and fading.

To add a S&W stamping, look at the sideplate.

 

[iby]

Odd serial number. Cartouche looks odd, like maybe altered or overstamped. The word Winchester on the barrel with the odd mis spelling of the CTG. A pic of the gun without the grips might be revealing. Take a close look at the 3 of the 32 Winchester designation on the barrel. Did S&W roll mark the .32-20 ctg revolvers 32 Winchester? Lots of odd features. I'm no expert but I am skeptical about this revolver. Serial numbers don't match on the butt and crane. Lettering not centered on the barrel. Winchester is misspelled with the same o as ctg. Crooked T on the word Winchester. Letters are all the same size but spacing is a bit uneven. I'll put my money on it being a Spanish copy.

Your money will be lost

 

[alwslate]

Well I may be wrong but the trade mark looks odd to me and no where on the gun does it actually say Smith & Wesson. I have a fair number of old S&W K frames and all actually say Smith & Wesson on them. My oldest is #149660 and has the Cartouche and the Smith Wesson name and patent dates on the right side of the barrel.

 

[Model19man]

Well I may be wrong but the trade mark looks odd to me and no where on the gun does it actually say Smith & Wesson. I have a fair number of old S&W K frames and all actually say Smith & Wesson on them. My oldest is #149660 and has the Cartouche and the Smith Wesson name and patent dates on the right side of the barrel.

This is mine but I think the one the OP posted will have the same patent dates on top of the barrel. You missed the boat on this one.

 

[DWalt]

There are probably thousands of “Pancho Villa’s Gun” stories, and no way to verify them. Allegedly, his widow (he had lots of wives) ran a successful business buying up junk guns and selling them to gullible Gringo gun collectors for big pesos. I have no doubt yours is an authentic and correct S&W, but without any significant collector value unless you can document and confirm the alleged Pancho connection. Which is highly unlikely. There is an old gun collector adage that says “Buy the gun, not the story,” and it applies to your situation.

 

[brandoncw12]

DWalt, I have a similar S&W Club Pistol that may have ties to Villa. S&W gave me province to the actual pistol, I just cannot tie it to my family-Baylor's (Baylor University). Feel free to call or text me, with the serial number on the pistol S&W may be able to help you. I have their numbers and a contact you should seek out.

Texas regards,
Brandon C. Williford
3614415814
[email protected]

 

[shawn mccarver]

The barrel marking is "32 Winchester CTG," not "Winchester OTO."

 

[alwslate]

This is mine but I think the one the OP posted will have the same patent dates on top of the barrel. You missed the boat on this one.

My pre 1913 .38 spl has the Smith & Wesson information on the right side of the barrel. Some do have the same info on the top of the barrel but in blowing up the pics I can not see info on the top of the barrel.

 

[alwslate]

I would like to see the OP return with more pics of the gun including some without the grips and a pic of the top of the barrel. Been wrong before and will be again, just like to be convinced.

 

[BC38]

I would like to see the OP return with more pics of the gun including some without the grips and a pic of the top of the barrel. Been wrong before and will be again, just like to be convinced.

Yeah, I also hope he comes back, and some more pictures would be a great help.

Did revolvers of this vintage even have rollmarks on the top of the barrel?

 

[alwslate]

Yeah, I also hope he comes back, and some more pictures would be a great help.

Did revolvers of this vintage even have rollmarks on the top of the barrel?

On the top or side of the barrel. My 1909 vintage 4" .38 spl has the full S&W banner down the right side of the barrel. Company name and patent dates. I could text a pic if some body would post as I have been unable to up load pics so far from my iphone.

 

[glowe]

All S&W early K frame barrels had the address/patent dates on either the top or side of the barrel depending on barrel length. That gun has, not only lost its finish, it has literally lost a lot of metal as well. Wear plus who knows how much rust, has been removed over the years. Possible that a light stamped gun could lose enough metal to obliterate the top barrel stamping. The same could have happened for the SMITH & WESSON on the right side. It is certainly possible that the barrel is replaced, but the OP did not capture the serial number on the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps he will take a close-up of that number.

 

[glowe]

On the top or side of the barrel. My 1909 vintage 4" .38 spl has the full S&W banner down the right side of the barrel. Company name and patent dates. I could text a pic if some body would post as I have been unable to up load pics so far from my iphone.

I have a safe full of pre-WWI K frames, so not necessary to send anything. 4" barrels did not leave enough room for the barrel stamping between the rear swell and the front sight, so the factory moved them to the side . . . but the 1899/1902 4" guns did have their address/patent dates fitted to the top of the gun as shown on first two photos. 5", 6", and 6.5" barrels were stamped on the top as in third photo shows.

 

[Muley Gil]

On the top or side of the barrel. My 1909 vintage 4" .38 spl has the full S&W banner down the right side of the barrel. Company name and patent dates. I could text a pic if some body would post as I have been unable to up load pics so far from my iphone.

I'm sure there is a better, faster way but I e-mail pictures from my phone to myself, then download them on my computer. From there, it is easy to post them on the forum.

 

[kscharlie]

I have a safe full of pre-WWI K frames, so not necessary to send anything. 4" barrels did not leave enough room for the barrel stamping between the rear swell and the front sight, so the factory moved them to the side . . . but the 1899/1902 4" guns did have their address/patent dates fitted to the top of the gun as shown on first two photos. 5", 6", and 6.5" barrels were stamped on the top as in third photo shows.

It wasn't only 1899/1902 4" guns with patent info on the top. I have a 4" 1905 4th Change with patents on the top of the barrel.

 

[glowe]

It wasn't only 1899/1902 4" guns with patent info on the top. I have a 4" 1905 4th Change with patents on the top of the barrel.

That is true, but I was just keeping my comments related to the era of the OP's revolver. I have a 4" from 1920 with that patent date on the top. When was your 4" made?

 

[kscharlie]

That is true, but I was just keeping my comments related to the era of the OP's revolver. I have a 4" from 1920 with that patent date on the top. When was your 4" made?

Haven't been able to queue up a request to Roy yet for confirmation, but 1920/1921 time frame.

 

[BC38]

On the top or side of the barrel. My 1909 vintage 4" .38 spl has the full S&W banner down the right side of the barrel. Company name and patent dates. I could text a pic if some body would post as I have been unable to up load pics so far from my iphone.

I use the text message app to send pictures to my email to get them on my computer. Then they are easy to post to the website.

EDIT: I see that Muley Gil beat me to it. Great minds think alike I guess...

 

[Muley Gil]

I use the text message app to send pictures to my email to get them on my computer. Then they are easy to post to the website.

EDIT: I see that Muley Gil beat me to it. Great minds think alike I guess...

YUP!!!!!!

 

[steelslaver]

Great minds think alike and so do yours