Question on ammo for my 30's era 1905

I know this has probably been beat to death and I apologize but I couldn't find any results in the search. I'm wondering what kind of ammo a 1930's era 1905 can take. I ask because I know that some old ammo was actually higher pressure, while some old ammo was just plain anemic, so I didn't want to load up some modern ammo and ruin my new gun. Thanks!

Any commercially loaded standard pressure ammo will be fine.

Stay away from +p ammo: you don’t need it for any purpose and pre model guns ought not be fed the stuff.

The admonition concerning the use of +P ammo in pre-war revolvers is common in discussions of this nature, and I find no fault with it----simply because I don't know that much about it. I know it's a souped-up load, but what I don't know is the answer to this question: Compared to what?

In this instance the answer to that question (Compared to what?) should be how does today's +P ammo compare to 1930's ammo? I have part of the answer to that question---at least I think I do, and I'm looking forward to learning the rest of the answer.

The part of the answer I have is from a table titled Ballistics of Revolver Cartridges to be found in a 1930's era S&W catalog. Now our inquirer doesn't specify the caliber of his 1930's revolver, but it's a good bet it's .38 Special (and if it isn't, I have the same data for all the calibers available in 1930'3 revolvers (except the 357 Magnum------and I can get those from a later catalog).

Now I have bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and muzzle energy. I reckon those who know a good bit more than I do about all this can translate those items into comparative pressures, and if they can't then I'm sure they can provide the same data (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and muzzle energy) for today's +P stuff----------and we can go from there with educated guesses.

So .38 S&W Special---bullet weight 158 grains; muzzle velocity 847 fps; muzzle energy 252 ft. lbs.. As perhaps an aside, I also have the "+P" version----1930's style---the .38/44 S&W Special: bullet weight 158 grains; muzzle velocity 1,125 fps.; muzzle energy 444 ft. lbs. As another aside, the regular .38 Special penetrates 8 1/2 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. The .38/44 S&W Special penetrates 12 such boards.

And so-------------------------------------???????????????????

Ralph Tremaine

The general advice is that +P .38 Special ammunition should not be used in earlier K-frames, but it is not unsafe to do it. There have been some instances in which the rear barrel section which protrudes through the frame has split when firing .38 Special +P loads with lighter bullets. And of course it increases wear and tear on the gun. The .38-44 round earlier described has a much higher ballistic performance level than standard .38 Special loadings, but it is nonetheless safe to shoot in any .38 Special revolver. The downside is somewhat increased recoil. Of course, that round is no longer loaded by the major factories, and has not been for about 50 years. But it can easily be duplicated by handloading and I believe that some of the boutique ammo makers do load it.

I have not studied this and am wondering how much "extra high power" 38 Special was available when the first 38-44 Outdoorsman revolvers came out? Never saw a box of 1930s pre +Ps and am wondering how they were labeled and marketed. Was it simply 38-44 vs 38 Special?

glowe said:

I have not studied this and am wondering how much "extra high power" 38 Special was available when the first 38-44 Outdoorsman revolvers came out? Never saw a box of 1930s pre +Ps and am wondering how they were labeled and marketed. Was it simply 38-44 vs 38 Special?

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Depending on the manufacturer, it was labeled as .38-44, .38 Special Hi-Speed (Remington), .38 Special Super Speed (Winchester), .38 Special Super-X (Western), and .38 Special High Velocity (Peters).

After being on this forum for close to 10 years my basic rule of thumb for .38 specials and K frames.

Any currently made .38 special ammo is okay for any of my K frames (in my case that is guns between 1914 and today).

+P's: Never in a pre model K frame. Model K frames are okay but why?

As a general rule of thumb for all my vintage S&W revolvers I just stick to heavy weight bullets in all calibers. Stay away from 125 grain bullets in 38 special and 357 mag. The light bullets are usually loaded hotter if you buy them or if you reload as I do, the lighter bullets lead to more forcing cone wear and possible cracked forcing cones in the case of model 19's. Lead bullets either in swc 158 grain or wadcuters that typically weigh 148 grain is safest way to go and usually most accurate too.

I see. So heavy leads eh? And what is a pre model K frame?

Buddiiee said:

I see. So heavy leads eh? And what is a pre model K frame?

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S&W assigned model numbers in 1957. The frames started having the number stamped, behind the yoke, in 1958. If your short action revolver doesn't have the model stamp, it is a pre model. The .38 Military & Police revolvers are built on the K frame.

Well, so far it looks like nobody knows about such things as muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, or even pine boards for today's +P stuff. Interesting----but that's okay; 'cause now I do. I broke down and looked it up in one of the books.

So---here we go: 158 grain bullet leaves the muzzle at 890 fps-----compared to 847 fps for the 1930's .38 Special-------WOW, I can see why everybody's so nervous about this +P stuff---and the muzzle energy's a whopping 280 ft. lbs.-----compared to 252 ft.lbs. for the 1930's.

Pretty impressive, huh?

Right about now we should probably have a refresher course in fishing tackle----you know, the stuff they make to catch fish----right? Well that's what some folks think. Some other folks think fishing tackle is made to sell to fishermen---and fisherwomen. I wonder why they make this +P stuff? Does it maybe cost more than the regular stuff?

Maybe we can talk some more about this romping, stomping +P ammo some day-------------or not.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, these are the numbers for today's regular, everyday .38 Special stuff (with the 158 grain bullet): Muzzle velocity 755 fps. Muzzle energy 200 ft.lbs.

Does anybody have any numbers for spitballs?

About that pressure you're talking about... Penetration, muzzle velocity and pine boards have zero to do with chamber pressure, which is the thing were hoping to learn more about here. Muzzle velocity is a function of quite a few things including ambient air temps, bullet to bore fit, barrel length, powder used and so forth. Penetration is a function of that PLUS the bullet design and what it's made out of-also not helpful in true chamber pressure. It's kind of like on forced induction engines when talking boost versus cylinder pressure; they're not the same thing.

Even when comparing apples to apples there's still an orange in there somewhere. What I mean by that is there's more than one way to achieve +p velocities. Different powders have different behaviors, and knowing this can allow a ammo maker to get the same velocities but with different chamber pressures. Tim Sundles from Buffalo Bore Ammunition does this. His powder, which he will not discuss, can in some loads get higher velocities than the competitors without the high chamber pressure or overall pressure spikes. For me, my inquiry would lie in other guys's hands on experience, which is the other way to find this stuff out without having all the really expensive and sophisticated pressure equipment munitions companies use to measure their charges. If I can find a guy that reloads here, and can attest to having 3000 rounds of higher than standard saami spec pressure rounds through his revolver with zero malfunctions, I'd take that as good enough proof for me, as I would only load +P ammo for when the gun's pressed into a defensive role, otherwise I'd just shoot the really tame cowboy loads you see out there with an anemic 690fps muzzle velocity for plinking.

Buddiiee said:

About that pressure you're talking about... Penetration, muzzle velocity and pine boards have zero to do with chamber pressure, which is the thing were hoping to learn more about here.

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Well, sorry that nothing above was worth learning. I disagree that velocity does not correlate to chamber pressure. Also, this is only my opinion, but after 40 years of researching, shooting, and reloading, plus having a couple dozen K frames to shoot, I am confident in my comments.

It is true that an equations cannot be written, but it is also true that velocity is a direct result of chamber pressure. Hotter loads are both higher pressure and higher velocity. Penetration is also the effect of velocity first, and then also affected to a lesser extent by bullet design with regards to 38 Special. When talking about 38 Special ammunition, most all bullets from the 1930s and still today are lead, so penetration of pine boards is quite uniform if using different profiles but same weights.

I asked the question about standard labeling of vintage pre +P ammo because that is what you would have called high pressure, while standard 38 Special loadings offered less pressure and lower velocities. Most were 158 grain RN lead running around 750 to 850 fps with about 250 ft-lbs.

My 1955 Lyman reloading manual states that average 38 Special ballistics were as stated above, and by Ralph, in the low to mid-800s while what was called 38 Special High Velocity averaged around 1200 fps. These same numbers will remain the average well back into the 1930s. Lyman advised that the high velocity loading was for heavy frame guns only. Bottom line is that current 38 Special ammo for sale is either standard or +P, making it easy to choose at the local gun store.

Buy some Winchester, Remington, Federal in various bullet weights, from 130g to 158g, to determine what is the most accurate ammo for your gun. If you are only shooting paper, stick with wadcutters as they will undoubtedly prove to be the most accurate round for most revolvers.

Well, it's like I said right up front, "-------------I don't know that much about it."-----------and it looks like I'm not alone.

Ralph Tremaine

glowe said:

Well, sorry that nothing above was worth learning. I disagree that velocity does not correlate to chamber pressure. Also, this is only my opinion, but after 40 years of researching, shooting, and reloading, plus having a couple dozen K frames to shoot, I am confident in my comments.

It is true that an equations cannot be written, but it is also true that velocity is a direct result of chamber pressure. Hotter loads are both higher pressure and higher velocity. Penetration is also the effect of velocity first, and then also affected to a lesser extent by bullet design with regards to 38 Special. When talking about 38 Special ammunition, most all bullets from the 1930s and still today are lead, so penetration of pine boards is quite uniform if using different profiles but same weights.

I asked the question about standard labeling of vintage pre +P ammo because that is what you would have called high pressure, while standard 38 Special loadings offered less pressure and lower velocities. Most were 158 grain RN lead running around 750 to 850 fps with about 250 ft-lbs.

My 1955 Lyman reloading manual states that average 38 Special ballistics were as stated above, and by Ralph, in the low to mid-800s while what was called 38 Special High Velocity averaged around 1200 fps. These same numbers will remain the average well back into the 1930s. Lyman advised that the high velocity loading was for heavy frame guns only. Bottom line is that current 38 Special ammo for sale is either standard or +P, making it easy to choose at the local gun store.

Buy some Winchester, Remington, Federal in various bullet weights, from 130g to 158g, to determine what is the most accurate ammo for your gun. If you are only shooting paper, stick with wadcutters as they will undoubtedly prove to be the most accurate round for most revolvers.

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Velocity can correlate to chamber pressure, but it's not an absolute. Plus, the pressures from ammo in the 50's may not be helpful because not only do I doubt you can still get the EXACT same powder they were quoting for those velocities in that book and even if you could, I'm 100% certain they've already changed their recipe for that powder so, the info maybe be a tad obsolete. What would have been called "high pressure" back then doesn't really apply because even if one did score a can of 70 year old powder, it undoubtedly changed it's behavior over the years, and would produce different velocities if loaded today. But I understand if you're using that for reference of guys shooting those loads in our pistols. Though that info may still be obsolete as those guns are a lot older now. Who knows what their cylinders have been through. (unless you have access to an x-ray machine, which would be awesome.)

"Wet magging", as we call it for short in the engine world, is only ok for finding cracks that have either made it to the surface and exposed themselves or originate at the surface, but wet "magnufluxing" won't reveal the inner anomalies of the potentially damaged cylinder that's just waiting to explode and ruin our guns; only x rays can do that.

And since I'm certain that none of us have access to x-ray machines and expert analysis, I'm inquiring more about how the cylinder pressure that modern, store bought factory +p ammo produces, will affect these old cylinder walls and/or forcing cones. Hoping someone here has, on an off chance fired a few boxes of the stuff through his gun and witnessed no ill effects.

This way if we at least know a little bit of the history of the firearm and know it was never abused we could feel confident enough that she'll take a few of these rounds without letting go. I just don't want to be the one that experiments with it lol, as I used all my good luck up in Iraq lol.

Almost any K-frame of any age in good condition can withstand a few boxes of +P without damage. It's a steady diet of high-pressure loads which can shorten its life.

DWalt said:

Almost any K-frame of any age in good condition can withstand a few boxes of +P without damage. It's a steady diet of high-pressure loads which can shorten its life.

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I see. That's very good to know.

I'll make it easy for you. Stick to standard 158 grain, lead round nose ammo loaded to around 750-850 fps. That is what the gun was designed for and what the fixed sights were regulated for. I am assuming that you are not going to depend upon the gun for self defense but rather just for fun, recreational shooting.

It may be a winter carry every now and again... They are ok for that aren't they? Or wouldn't you recommend that.

So, if you only own, one gun chambered in 38 special and you want to carry it for self defense, practice with standard loads and load up a cylinder of +P when you carry it. If you own a model marked s&w 38, use it to shoot +P loads.....unless it's one that isn't so rated, like some of the early airweights.

Robert