History Letter & A O Niedner 22/32

ol777gunnerz · Jun 13, 2020

This is my first S&W that is not a breaktop, a 22/32 revolver that shipped April of 1919 and I plan to send for a letter. It is fully functional, & yes it does shoot. At some point it passed thru A O Niedner's hands, has his pre 1921 Malden, Mass. stamp on the frame, which does not mean it was done in Michigan as the Niedner Rifle Corp. roll mark would not fit the top of the barrel. It does have a knurled trigger & bobbed hammer. There is no S&W Trademark on either side of the frame as shown, & sports single screw grips. This is the one Michael Petrov owned at one time, & believed it was Niedner's personal revolver.

ol777gunnerz · Jun 13, 2020

More Questions

As I am not familiar with these revolvers, the first photo shows a number on the front of the frame, 1737, what is the significance of this number? Under the barrel is the matching serial number to the one on the front butt plate, but has a diamond at the right side, does the diamond repesent anything? On the butt as shown in 3rd photo, in small numbrs: 10 22 with a sideways "N" by the 22, do the numbers & letter mean anything?

mrcvs · Jun 13, 2020

Can you post a photograph of the serial number on the front of the grip? Presumably there is a star next to it. This means that it went back to Smith & Wesson in October 1922 (the 10.22 stamped on the frame). The Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation may be able to provide documentation as to what was done in October of 1922 once you have a factory letter in hand.

mrcvs · Jun 13, 2020

I should state that enlarging the partial serial number, as photographed, reveals 6 figures, and not 7, from what I can see. The 6 figures observed are the 6 digits of the serial number. The seventh figure, which might be absent, would be the star. I'm now convinced that Smith & Wesson might have sometimes been careless with regards to the application of the star and date code as I have a Triple Lock with the star and no date code (which should have been 9.29 or 10.29). This was the subject matter of a recent thread I created and the star and factory letter enabled the SWHF to locate paperwork describing work done in September and October of 1929.

Also, I am guessing the stamping by the gunsmith does not indicate personal ownership but rather was applied after the gunsmith worked on this .22/32 HFT or maybe applied prior to retailing this firearm, which is sometimes done here but more often in the UK.

One other thought. I am not sure where the star would be applied by Smith & Wesson if the serial number is not located on the butt. Generally, with most models, the star is located next to the serial number which is on the butt. I'm not sure if Smith & Wesson's protocol was to locate the star next to the primary serial number, wherever that may be, or to locate on the butt always. If the latter, you might see a star on the butt and it might be faint.

ol777gunnerz · Jun 13, 2020

serial

270925 is the serial number on the front strap.

H Richard · Jun 13, 2020

Note the Diamond stamp on the barrel flat. That may be indication of a barrel change. If just re-blued it's an asterisk. Because of the quality of .22 RF ammo back in this time frame, it is not too unusual to find a bulged barrel from a squib load followed by a live round. Usually the cause for a changed barrel. The s/n is on the front strap on this model because of the stocks length, covering the base of the grip frame where the s/n usually was. The # on the yoke frame area is an assembly # and has no meaning outside the factory.

mrcvs · Jun 13, 2020

ol777gunnerz said:
270925 is the serial number on the front strap.

Can you remove the stocks and see if there is any markings on the butt?

Hondo44 · Jun 13, 2020

That's a little dandy! Congrats.

The star follows the frame serial # wherever it's stamped; if on the butt or on the front grip strap if it's stamped at all. Occasionally on the left side of the grip frame if the owner doesn't want it on the exterior. Use of the star did not begin until ~1920. But they are occasionally missing regardless.

The N near the date stamp on the grip is an original inspector ID code mark from before the gun left the factory. It predates the rework date stamp.

The diamond on the barrel indicates a replaced/refurbished part after the gun was shipped.

The bobbed hammer may have been on purpose, however this model seems to be predisposed to having the spur broken off, usually from dropping the gun.

If you ever remove the sights you will find the serial # on the front blade and rear blade, and also under the rear sight tang. If any of those have a diamond stamp, they were replaced as well. Since they can be damaged also if the gun was dropped.

JSR III · Jun 13, 2020

This was a strange time period in S&W history. WW1 had just ended in November of 1918. S&W decided to offer the .22/32 with the regulation police style stocks as opposed to the two screw extension target stocks. According to Roy Jinks it was a cost saving measure as they could offer several models with the same stocks. Although the extension stocks were still available upon request, they would not return as standard equipment until late 1924. The early .22/32 HFT's have a medium size S&W logo on the right side of the frame and then in 1919 there is no logo. In early 1924 a small size logo appears on the left side of the frame.

Due to the fact that the 2 screw extension stocks covered the butt of the frame, S&W placed the serial number on the front of the grip strap.

I have seen the bobbed hammer on a few of these guns and some suggest that this modification was to prevent the web of the shooters hand from getting pinched during double action firing.

A O Niedner did have a gunsmith shop in Malden MA until the mid 20's when he moved to Michigan and formed his rifle company. He did work with Patridge on the patridge front sights and possibly it was he who bobbed the hammer. It would be interesting to see what the S&WHF has in the files as it does appear that this .22/32 went back at least once for something.

Hondo44 · Jun 14, 2020

ol777gunnerz,

By the way, starting with the 1917 Army Model for the military, you won't find S&W Hand Ejector models produced with the S&W logo thru 1919. It was not used again until ~ sometime in 1920 when production got back to the pre war "normal" protocol.

The blue finish took about ten years before most models regained the polish and bright blue finish of the pre war levels. It took 10 years following WWII as well.

SDH · Jun 14, 2020

The fact that Michael Petrov, noted author and historian once owned this revolver is as interesting to some as the fact that A.O. Niedner owed and marked it. Petrov's books are the leading source for info on Niedner and other between the wars American custom gunmakers.
I thought you have discovered this from your searches of old posts? I have a prototype Niedner buttplate from the Michael Petrov collection that I cherish.

ol777gunnerz · Aug 26, 2020

Letter

Received the History Letter from Roy Jinks, the revolver was one of a shipment of five to William Buckhard Co. of St. Paul, Minn. The grips match the letter, the front sight is now a Cheard, the barrel was replaced in 1922 [I believe Niedner bought a S&W barrel & rifled it himself], after all, that was his main business by then, & bobbed the hammer.

ol777gunnerz · Aug 26, 2020

A O Niedner

Some photos of A O Niedner, who was a well known for his skill in rifling barrels as well as for his marksmanship with rifles & handguns. The second image is Niedner after he enlisted in the Cavalry in 1881 at age 16 [he said he was big for his age] & served as a Sharpshooter, fighting in 17 engagements in the Indian Wars against Geronimo & Victorio.

JSR III · Aug 26, 2020

Not sure if it matters to you but the company is William R. Burkhard not Buckhard.

Hondo44 · Aug 26, 2020

ol777gunnerz said:
Received the History Letter from Roy Jinks, the revolver was one of a shipment of five to William Buckhard Co. of St. Paul, Minn. The grips match the letter, the front sight is now a Cheard, the barrel was replaced in 1922 [I believe Niedner bought a S&W barrel & rifled it himself], after all, that was his main business by then, & bobbed the hammer.

Thanx for the follow up information.

I suggest now that you have the authentication letter, F/U for the archived records of the repair in 1922 with the S&W Historical Foundation. Nothing found, no cost to you. If records are found copies are a nominal cost and informative as to exactly what was done when it went back to the factory.

The barrel was reworked or replaced by S&W. The matching serial # stamped on it in matching factory font and the diamond stamp are the clinchers that the work was done by the factory. The barrel would not have those stampings if it was sold as a part for someone else to install. The factory would not have bobbed the hammer however.

The Patridge front sight that the letter indicates as the original would have made a very poor sight picture with the small U notch cutout rear sight blade, which was compatible with the earlier standard front Paine bead sight blade. Eventually the rear sight blade was changed to a larger square notch blade in the early 1920s to be compatible with the Patridge front sight.

I suspect the gun was returned for installation of the Sheard bead front sight blade for a proper sight picture with the small U notch rear sight. Again the archived info will confirm. S&W would install any sight blades from other manufacturers upon request, either as a new gun or went sent back. It was likely sent back for the change by the original owner and and verify that Niedner owned it. The archived info will have the name of the owner at the time. Otherwise there's no evidence that Niedner owned it, just possibly did some work on it and therefore stamped it.

There's no marks on the grip frame indicating that the gun was reblued upon return to the factory. And has no evidence that it was re-finished from the photos.

That's a wonderful condition HFT with great provenance!

Hope that helps,

JSR III · Aug 27, 2020

The Patridge front sight that the letter indicates as the original would have made a very poor sight picture with the small U notch cutout rear sight blade, which was compatible with the earlier standard front Paine bead sight blade. Eventually the rear sight blade was changed to a larger square notch blade in the early 1920s to be compatible with the Patridge front sight.

FWIW, in my database of the .22/32 HFT's, I have several Patridge front sighted guns listed having shipped in the first 1,050 guns built and even a few shipped to Bekeart himself. Although the Paine/U notch was typical, guns could be ordered with the Patridge/square notch combination. Since I don't have all of the front sight details on the first 1,050 guns built, I cannot report with certainty what the breakdown was only that some exist.

Green Frog · Aug 27, 2020

Just a quick comment on the stocks. Like a salmon swimming upstream I support the use of those RP stocks vs the more commonly used “2 screw target” stocks. Contrary to virtually everyone else I’ve heard from, I think the RP stocks both look better and feel better... at least to me. Looks like AON may have concurred.

Froggie

ol777gunnerz · Aug 27, 2020

Green Frog said:
Just a quick comment on the stocks. Like a salmon swimming upstream I support the use of those RP stocks vs the more commonly used “2 screw target” stocks. Contrary to virtually everyone else I’ve heard from, I think the RP stocks both look better and feel better... at least to me. Looks like AON may have concurred.

Froggie

I agree, I have large hands & the grips were great when I test fired it shortly after receiving it, the bobbed hammer did not effect my firing it single action. Using standard velocity lead bullet ammo the revolver was very accurate with zero adjustments.

ol777gunnerz · Oct 5, 2020

The Historical Foundation has no records of the revolver, thanks to Bill Cross for looking & a quick reply. I will still be happy with the A O Niedner & Michael Petrov connection.

Retired W4 · Oct 6, 2020

Really incredible work, and customized in my father's home town, Malden.

History Letter & A O Niedner 22/32

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