Long vs. Short Action

Hello Folks,

I'm interested to learn more about the older S&W revolvers which I have heard referred to as "long action." In particular, I would like to know how to identify them, in the hope of locating a 22, 38, and a 45 caliber revolver for myself. From reading the "Standard Catalog," it appears that any guns made after 1948, and any guns with an "S" prefix serial number are the newer design "short action" revolvers. The "S" might stand for "short hammer throw," but the references I've seen suggest that it indicates the addition of the hammer-block safety activated by the recoil slide.

Anyway, if anyone would be so kind as to enlighten me, or point me to previous discussions, I would be grateful. Just FYI, I'm not a collector. My intent is to shoot any guns I'm so fortunate as to acquire.

Thanks, Tom

These are K frame revolvers, two long action (pre-war) above a short action (S-series post war). Cocked and fired.
The hammer spurs are different, but look at the firing pin nose to see the different lengths.

Short action on the left see the nose rivet more of it exposed.

The postwar K-series Masterpiece revolvers have the short action. Other K-frame revolvers went to the short action around SN S990xxx, early 1948. N-frame revolvers went to the short action a little later, beginning around SN S78000, ca. 1950. I don't know the exact SN at which the N-frame change occurred, but certainly in the upper S7xxxx range. The hammer shape is a good indicator.

"The "S" might stand for "short hammer throw," but the references I've seen suggest that it indicates the addition of the hammer-block safety activated by the recoil slide."
The S indicates the improved hammer drop safety.

You can tell a long action from a short action just by looking at the hammer spur.

It the spur is located at the top of the hammer, it’s a long action.
If the spur attachment is about half way down, it’s a short action.
Look at the above photos and you’ll see what I mean.

Not to hi-jack this thread, but I have a question to go along with it. The pre-war and 'transitional' N-Frames had the butt slightly longer than the newer ones. Put some later model Magnas on one and you can see the difference, about 1/32 inch or so. Does this longer butt go along with the earlier long- action revolvers, or is there no relationship involved?

There's really no relationship involved.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

DWalt said:

The postwar K-series Masterpiece revolvers have the short action. Other K-frame revolvers went to the short action around SN S990xxx, early 1948. N-frame revolvers went to the short action a little later, beginning around SN S78000, ca. 1950. I don't know the exact SN at which the N-frame change occurred, but certainly in the upper S7xxxx range. The hammer shape is a good indicator.

"The "S" might stand for "short hammer throw," but the references I've seen suggest that it indicates the addition of the hammer-block safety activated by the recoil slide."
The S indicates the improved hammer drop safety.

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Personally never heard of the "S" postwar serial prefix as relating to "safety" incorporation. True or not???

Just checked my XL and appears my lowest SN 1950 is S77234, in 38/44, pix below. Also throwing pix of it's 'kissin cousin' in Transitional S63663, something at least thousand over first post war SN. Would be interesting to know from members what their lowest N & S frame SN Models 1950 are & chabering! Bill, AKA "Mr 38/44" should likely trump us all in range highs/lows.

The K frames seem another animal. Squirrely! Differing serial ranges for differing models. The M&P seeming to be way high as the Masterpeice series apparently new postwar. (Small number of prewar K frame miniscule but 'there'.) I have a postwar .22 Masterpiece K frame SN in the 10xxx and not really such postwar "low". A Masterpiece .38 Spl in 23xxx range! A first year production K38 Combat Masterpeice in K87xxx range.
Great things about N and S frames, single range regardless of chambering. My 1950 45 ACP in 79xxx range as I recall.

I also use the hammer spur as quick "face recognition" for pre & post Model 1950. Positive!

Last, not least, the getting a grip on the pre/postwar "N" size frames! Hadn't heard of that difficulty, yet having definitely seen ill-fitting grips as described. Apparent factory but tiny bit short. Really how to buy even factory grips... Ensuring covering your butt? A knotty problem! Would also like to hear other (non comedians) comments on this matter!

Best! John

iskra, here is a thread that shows a little of what I am talking about.

Question on 38/44 OD Stocks

To fully understand and identify the long to short action introduction, it helps to understand the immediate Post WWII models.

Only K & N frames had the change, not the I and J frames.

Most all models re-introduced after the war are known as Post War Transitional Models. In simplest terms they are Pre war models but with the addition of the post war sliding bar hammer block safety usually, but not always (known as Pre war/Post war Transitionals), with an S prefix but again not always. And will typically have all or many pre war features below, which vary by model, frame size, and production date. As usual with S&Ws exceptions abound: for one, the .38 Military and Police does not have a Transitional Model, because its production was not terminated during the war nor re-introduced after the war.

1. Long action pre war shaped hammer spurs, notched below the hammer nose (firing pin) for new safety block. Note: Short actions have differently shaped post war hammer spurs. Long Action, Short Action?

2. Address and Patent dates on barrel and no barrel rib except K and N frame target models.

3. MADE IN U.S.A. on right front frame instead of the four line address rollmark.

4. Some will still have 'barrel' style extractor knobs with notched barrel, but can have the straight rod with knurled tip.

5. I frame (and K frame in Feb. 1946, first year the postwar civilian K frames left the factory) have Pre war service style (round top) stocks with pre war or post war medallions and/or checkering borders while later K frames and all N frames have pre or post war Magnas.

6. Satin blue finish unless bright blue option was special ordered.

7. Target models have post war Micro Click rear sights and barrel ribs, except for the 1946 K38 Target 'Mexican Model' which has the pre war Micro Click sight assembly, and I frame targets which have pre war sights.



The next step in the post war evolution were the "dated" models, which have the short action. Often referred to as the Pre models because they have the same engineering design improvements of the model # stamped versions following the model # designations mid 1957 (although not actually stamped until ~1958).

For example: the K Targets beginning in 1948 as I recall, the N frames in 1950.

The S prefix in the serial number, on both K and N frame revolvers specifically denotes the use of the new sliding hammer block safety. This started on the K frames during Victory Model production, specifically in December, 1944, with shipments beginning in January, 1945.

When postwar production of N frame revolvers started in the late 1940s, the new safety was included in the design and was denoted by the S prefix. Until March, 1948, the M&P got the long action hammer but had the new safety device. That is precisely why the serial number carried an S prefix. It had nothing whatever to do with the length of drop of the hammer.

I would note in response to one of the replies in this thread that there is no such thing as an "S frame" revolver.

Posted by Hondo44

I frame( and K frame in March, 1946, the first year the postwar civilian K frames left the factory) have Pre war service style (round top) stocks with pre war or post war medallions and/or checkering borders while later K frames and all N frames have pre or post war Magnas.

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I have a ton of respect for Jim, but this statement is in error. In my research on the immediate postwar M&P, I have looked at literally thousands of S prefix M&Ps. I do not believe any were shipped with prewar service stocks (non-Magna) except for the round butt 2" guns. The earliest postwar shipped guns, Feb-April, 1946, mostly shipped with prewar style Magna stocks. Those lasted only into April, and were replaced with the earliest postwar iteration of the Magna stocks (the difference is in the checkering).

Incidentally, in my immediately preceding post, I wrote:

The earliest postwar shipped guns, Feb-April, 1946

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I have identified exactly one shipment in February. Regular shipments began on March 1, 1946.

The February shipment was to fill a large order for the Cleveland Police Department. Interestingly, those guns were serialized in the S815xxx range.

For comparison, one of the guns that went out the door on the First of March was an SV prefix revolver, serialized as SV811119. Oddly enough, we know when this one was assembled - August 27, 1945. It sat in the vault for a while!

On March 3, a shipment of 800 M&P revolvers went to a large distributor in New York City. Half of them had 4" barrels and half had 5" barrels. At least some of them carried the SV prefix serial numbers below 800,000.

JP@AK said:

I have a ton of respect for Jim, but this statement is in error. In my research on the immediate postwar M&P, I have looked at literally thousands of S prefix M&Ps. I do not believe any were shipped with prewar service stocks (non-Magna) except for the round butt 2" guns. The earliest postwar shipped guns, Feb-April, 1946, mostly shipped with prewar style Magna stocks. Those lasted only into April, and were replaced with the earliest postwar iteration of the Magna stocks (the difference is in the checkering).

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Jack (M&P guru),

Good clarification. Being a side issue from the main point of my post, 'Long vs. Short Action', trying to generalize and minimize text.

No worries, no disrespect taken!

SDH said:

These are K frame revolvers, two long action (pre-war) above a short action (S-series post war). Cocked and fired.
The hammer spurs are different, but look at the firing pin nose to see the different lengths.

Click to expand...

When did the action change on the "S" series post war M&P revolvers. This is my 1947 "S" and has the long action.

Allegedly, the first M&P with short action was S990148 on April 7, 1948.

Hello Forum,

Apologizing in advance for any thread drift, but the OP also said he was maybe hoping to find a 22, 38, etc. and wanted to know short vs long action terminology. I'm still a newbie around here so I'm always learning, usually something new every time I log on.

Below pics are my K 22 Masterpiece that letters shipping August 12, 1947 (invoice is probably a typo showing 1946 in the description). So it is truly an "early post war". The serial number is K905, and the stocks number to the gun. According to Roy's Letter, the K22 Masterpiece started in February 1947 with s/n K101. Please note that the Letter doesn't describe the Call gold bead on the Patridge front sight, nor does it describe anything about the hammer, or action.

Some questions for the experts: I've heard the hammer on my gun described as a "fish hook" hammer, associated with the "short" action. I've also heard (more often than "short") that this style action was known as High Speed Action. Are both terms collector speak, or factory advertising of the time? The Magnas have silver medallions, the gun is a one line address, and the LERK feature is present.

Above posts indicate that post war K frames were shipping as early as Feb/March 1946, yet Roy's Letter indicates the K22 Masterpiece didn't start until Feb 1947. Does this mean only M&P's in 38 Special were shipping in 1946?

Again...sorry for any drift, just trying to understand the terminology of the times so I can spot treasures as they come to light every now and then.

Hello All,

This discussion is both informative and entertaining. Thank you.

From what I can gather, the least expensive way for me to get my feet wet with pre-War S&W revolvers is to look for a Military and Police 38 Special. Would you agree that this would be a good first gun for a neophyte?

Thanks, Tom

P.s. I'm waiting on the BATFE to act on my C&R application. When it arrives, would a forum WTB ad be a good way to initiate my search?

cmansguns said:

Below pics are my K 22 Masterpiece that letters shipping August 12, 1947 (invoice is probably a typo showing 1946 in the description). So it is truly an "early post war". The serial number is K905, and the stocks number to the gun. According to Roy's Letter, the K22 Masterpiece started in February 1947 with s/n K101. Please note that the Letter doesn't describe the Call gold bead on the Patridge front sight, nor does it describe anything about the hammer, or action.

Some questions for the experts: I've heard the hammer on my gun described as a "fish hook" hammer, associated with the "short" action. I've also heard (more often than "short") that this style action was known as High Speed Action. Are both terms collector speak, or factory advertising of the time? The Magnas have silver medallions, the gun is a one line address, and the LERK feature is present.

Above posts indicate that post war K frames were shipping as early as Feb/March 1946, yet Roy's Letter indicates the K22 Masterpiece didn't start until Feb 1947. Does this mean only M&P's in 38 Special were shipping in 1946?

Ag

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There were at least a few K-22s which left the factory in late 1946 for special people. General Julian Hatcher's was one of them. The postwar M&Ps began shipping in early 1946, and they were Victory military revolvers made up of components remaining in inventory at V-J day, but finished commercially, with commercial grips, and sold on the civilian market.

The so-called "Fish Hook" hammer style was used until the early-mid 1950s (depending on model) on short action K-frame guns. S&W referred to them as the High- Speed Hammer. Some call them the "Speed Hammer" but that is incorrect.

DWalt said:

Allegedly, the first M&P with short action was S990148 on April 7, 1948.

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Date is correct, but I believe you transposed the last two digits of the serial number. The correct number is S990184.

Interestingly, there was a much earlier M&P assembled with the high speed hammer. It was serial number S924878, and it was assembled on October 21, 1947. I believe it was a prototype, and production of the changed model began the following April, as noted above.

The information on this gun comes from Hellstrom's notes, which are roughly contemporary with the actions described.

cmansguns said:

myy K 22 Masterpiece that letters shipping August 12, 1947 (invoice is probably a typo showing 1946 in the description). So it is truly an "early post war".

Click to expand...

According to the best information we have at present, there were only two K-22 Masterpiece revolvers shipped in 1946, both of them in December. Regular shipments began two months later, as you learned from Roy. Throughout 1947, the vast majority of K target guns assembled and shipped were K-22s. The K-38 came late to the party. The first five were assembled in June, 1947, with full production beginning in May, 1948 (320 examples were completed that month).

Above posts indicate that post war K frames were shipping as early as Feb/March 1946, yet Roy's Letter indicates the K22 Masterpiece didn't start until Feb 1947. Does this mean only M&P's in 38 Special were shipping in 1946?

Click to expand...

In a word, yes. For the first several months after civilian sales began, only the M&P was actually available for shipment, and pent up demand was huge. Early on, some large city police departments were among the big purchasers. I've already mentioned Cleveland (in February), but another was the NYPD. I show one shipment to the New York agency on March 19, 1946.