I have a revolver that is chambered in .38 Smith and Wesson (not to be confused with .38 special). The ammunition looks almost indistinguishable from 9mm except the rim is a shade bigger.

Anyway, today I was reading an article about ammo interchangeability and the author claimed a .38 S&W revolver will also shoot 9mm luger. Has anyone heard that or tried it before? I have serious reservations about trying it, but that would be a huge game changer for my old revolver if it's true.

This is the article: Interchangeability of Ammunition in Weapons - Gunshot Wounds

Simply put, absolutely not.

It's not just a matter of "will it fit." The 9mm Luger is loaded to MUCH higher chamber pressure than the 38 S&W. The S&W is commonly encountered in old breaktops and shooting a modern 9mm in one of those would not be good for the gun, your eyes, or your hands.

Once we're past that very important point, I just tried to drop a 9mm Luger into the chambers of one of my 38 S&Ws and it just drops in past flush with the chamber mouth. It won't headspace on my particular gun (a 1901 Lemon Squeezer).

Obviously the S&W is going to have a little bigger chamber than a 38 spl/357 mag because it's got a bigger diameter. The 9mm Luger simply won't fit into one of those guns, but it does actually get into a S&W chamber.

So that leads us to the last point. The 9mm Luger is a tapered case design. At its mouth it is .355 - .357" ID, but the base tapers out to well beyond that. The 38 S&W, as well as the special/357 mag, are for all intents and purposes straight walled cases. The 9mm is not simply a shortened version of those calibers but without a rim. The case will not be supported by the chambers designed for a straight-walled case.

And of even less importance: even if it did fire and was safe (which it's not), you'd be sending a .355" bullet down a .361 or 2" bore. You'd get terrible accuracy.

So the answer is, even if you could somehow get a 9mm to headspace and fire in a S&W gun, it is extremely stupid and the person who did that would receive the Darwin award for whatever happened to them.

Bottom line: shoot the ammunition stamped on the firearm ONLY. Even if something else "fits."

Can 9mm cartridges be fired in a .38 S&W chamber? Yes, but most would not do it. The extractor groove and rim on a 9mm case can be defaced enough with a hammer and punch to form a crude rim adequate to keep the cartridge from falling into the .38 S&W chamber. However, the 9mm develops a far higher chamber pressure than the .38 S&W, and an old revolver could be severely damaged by firing one. Second, the 9mm bullet diameter is undersized by about 0.005”. Not an advisable substitution except in extreme need situations.

I have written previously about firing 9mm in.38 revolvers during WWII, and indeed it is definitely known to have been done by both German and British troops, but not as a regular practice.

At one time Federal loaded a 9mm cartridge with a rim to be used in 9mm revolvers. They later found they would chamber and fire in weapons chambered for 38 S&W. As noted above, it would be VERY BAD to do this, especially in old top-break revolvers.

Well this was all interesting to learn. Thanks for all the info!

I think I'll try it sometime when I'm in a life or death situation, my only remaining gun is the .38, I'm all out of .38, and all I have is 9mm.

But, S&W has made revolvers since the 1980s that are designed to chamber and shoot the 9MM. And not the 38 S&W or 39 spl.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

There was at least one revolver made which was designed to shoot any cartridge of approximately 38 caliber, from .357 Magnum to .380 without modifications. I just can’t remember its name. I think it was made in Texas. I have seen several of them, even handled one several years ago. I’ll look it up, and add the name later.
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It was the Medusa. See: M47 Medusa | Gun Wiki | Fandom

This may be of interest, or at least worth reading another opinion reiterating some of the cautions already stated:
Smith & Wesson 9mm Revolver Rechambering | TK Custom Store

It's not something that ever interested me. Too easy to buy a gun made for the cartridge.

Sounds like you need a new Shield+

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

I have always been a fancier of handguns having multi-caliber capabilities. I have two of them, a Colt M1911 and an EAA Witness. I have the Colt set up for 9mm, .38 Super, .400 Cor-Bon, .45 ACP, and .22 LR. The Witness uses 9mm, .38 Super, and .45 ACP. I have considered adding .40 S&W and 10 mm, but I don’t particularly swoon over the .40s. Besides, the .400 Cor-Bon I already have is better than either of them. Except I must handload the .400.

A 9mm in an old 38S&W topbreak would be hazardous to the shooter as well as target. I am not so sure about the older I+J frame 38 S&W revolvers because of their age and era. It would not surprise me that some chambers that were on the large size would accept 9mm rounds and some headspace them right. The base of a 9mm is .391+- and a 38S&W .3865+_ BUT its SAAMI chamber base .3887 so only a .0003 difference from a S&W chamber and 9mm case base. Thr BIG concern is pressure, a second is if the 9mm case fit and head spaced well enough to fire, it may happen with a large headspace either as the 38S&W chamber ledge is to far forward and firing pin strike may drive it in even more. Having a case with a large headspace take a run at you recoil shield is never a good thing and way worse when the round is at ot above the guns design parameters.

I have made 2 K frame 9mm cylinders using newer 38 special cylinders from a couple 10-7 revolvers by reaming them and recessing them. The reamer did not remove much and only cuts for about 1/2" of 38 chamber. They use TKC clips which are expensive Something like $80 for 10. They work and function fine. Never tried them in my Ransom rest to check for best accuracy results. I fire them a few times but don't really use them, just thought they would be nice to have on hand.

NOTE TKC does J+K+l frame 38 Special to 9mm conversions
But they state

"Our work on cylinders rechambered to 9mm are LIMITED to our customer's using standard 9mm ammo or low pressure reloads, which are 34,000 - 35,000 psi chamber pressure or less. Same chamber pressures apply to firing of .38 SPL & .357 Mag. Examples of FACTORY Brands are: Winchester, Federal & Remington.

Absolutely NO 9mm Nato, 9mm +P or 9mm +P+, all which are far beyond the 34,000 - 35,000 psi chamber pressure"

My cylinders

I have heard similar stories about semiauto cartridges working in revolvers. I often hear about people shooting 32 ACP out of 32 S&W, 32 S&W Long, 32 H&R Mag, and 327 Federal revolvers. I have also heard of people shooting 38 Auto out of 38 S&W revolvers. That's the predecessor of 38 Super - using the later round would be very unsafe. The 38 Auto bullet would be way undersized for the 38 S&W bore. It is also at least as hard to find 38 Auto ammo as it is to find 38 S&W. Using any cartridge other than the one it is chambered for in any firearm is dangerous and should not be done.

I have doubts as to whether a .38 Auto/Super round would fully chamber in a .38 S&W cylinder as the case is too long. But SOME .38 Super brands will chamber in SOME .357/.38 Special cylinders, and if so, they will work fine. I have done that many times. In fact, it shoots like a light load. There is not much of a diameter difference between .38 Super cases and .38 S&W cases, and I size .38 S&W cases in a .38 Super FL die, and have for many years.

A man after my own heart. My Witness is set up for .22LR, .38 Super and .45 ACP.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I once considered adding .357 Sig to my list, except it won’t do anything a hot .38 Super load or 9x23 Win can’t handle just as well. You re aware that you can add 9mm capability to your Witness for the price of a 9mm barrel and magazine. I have found that 9mm does not feed reliably from a .38 Super magazine.

You got it! If the year is 1943 and I'm a British soldier, and my Spitfire got shot down in Nazi territory, and all I have is my empty Enfield No. 2, but I find a can of 9mm Luger cartridges, you bet I'm going to roll the dice and try to use them in my gun!

Outside of that, nope. Not worth it.

The .32 ACP, .38 Auto and .38 Super are all semi-rimmed cartridges. These can headspace on that semi-rim.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

So, can you shoot .32 ACP in a Lemon Squeezer? I'd buy another if that was true.

I considered the .357 SIG and reached the same conclusion. I have enough 9mms already, but if circumstances demanded that I limit myself to one handgun I'd be onboard.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Most Lemon Squeezers were intended for black powder pressures, so I would say NO.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It will chamber and fire - but I wouldn't do it. I believe your lemon squeezer is a top-break chambered for 32S&W, right?

32S&W SAAMI max pressure is 12,000 psi
32ACP SAAMI max pressure is 20,500 psi
So you are looking at a 70% over-pressure.

Even if your lemon squeezer is chambered in 32S&W Long, that round has a SAAMI max pressure of 15,000 psi - so a 32ACP is "only" a 25% over-pressure.

Still something I wouldn't do.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

The late Group Captain Peter Gilpin recalled to me that the pilots in his sqn used to do this in North Africa, practising, using German 9mm in their 38/200's, shaking the rounds back down after every shot. It was only after he got hold of a case of .38 from somewhere that they had the right stuff. "Of course, the only time I was shot down, I didn't have it with me."

I have written here not long ago that German POW (and concentration camp) guards often carried captured British .38 S&W revolvers to free up other pistols for more vital uses. And they used 9mm cartridges with boogered rims in them. There was a pretty good recent article on that topic on the IAA website not long ago which showed lots of pictures of altered 9mm rounds.

Just get a 940 or a 547.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Just spitballing here. What would happen if you took a WW II BSR (aka Victory Model) in 38 S&W and machined the rear face of the cylinder for a moon clip? Given a military or survival type application so reloading the brass would not be a consideration, would the 38 S&W chamber work for this? I assume that a K frame cylinder, even of that vintage, would be of sufficient strength for this application. Would this "work"?

Froggie

Yes, the same way an old revolver chambered for say 38 Long Colt with no steps in the chambers can fire 357 Magnum. As Elmer Keith might say, anyone doing that WILL get a real load-and a new gun as well !

What I wonder is just what is the history on margin of safety on fire arms. Look at the 357 mag, at first it was an N frame only round, now you can get a J frame 357, No way no how is steel that much stronger than it was 90 years ago.

It was a while before they had good test equipment to understand chamber pressures or steel tensile and yield strengths. Must have been some interesting experiments and failures. I know that proof load pressures vary from 25-50% over SAAMI rating depending on cartridge.
Plus, jut because there is no failure with 1 load doesn't not mean there would not be in 1000. But a proof load only prove the gun will take that load, it does not mean that is the limit.

Saturday while helping run the metal and welding portion of a FFA event one of the other guys told me about his uncle firing a reload that he had to hammer the bolt open on. The very idea of that is scary. GOOD Bolt actions are strong, but if the lugs fail it would be ugly ugly.

Yea, I'm with you on that. Just another reason that S&W needs to resurrect their 327 Fed Mag revolver. For now I'm stuck with the Taurus for that, but it sure is fun putting all those different ammo types through there at the range.
Great thread for the discussion on what NOT to do with ammo just 'cause it fits. Good reference thread.

Suppose we took a .38 S&W, trimmed the case to .754, ran it through a 9mm sizer and beller, loaded with .356 bullets and shot it in a 9mm revolver. Would that not be a 9mm rimmed.
Not saying there is a need for a 9mm rimmed but as an exercise would it work.
Les

The cartridge would not head space correctly.

A moon clipped 9MM or 380 has the clip (rim) situated where the extractor groove is on the cartridge.

The rim on your trimmed down 38 S&W would need to be 2 or 3 times normal thickness to get that primer closer to the recoil shield

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"Acta non verba"

357 SIG was not designed to replace 9x23 Winchester

It was designed to give 9x23 Winchester, 124/125 grain projectiles performance in firearms that were limited to the cartridge length of the 9MM Parabellum cartridge due to the design of their frame and magazine
And it achieves that goal at a much lower chamber pressure. 40,000 PSI for the 357 SIG vs. 55,000 PSI for the 9x23 Winchester


The 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester can only be fired in auto loaders designed around 38 ACP/45 ACP length cartridges or longer

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"Acta non verba"

Colt SAA,
I don't think you are right on the headspace.
I just made up a.38 Short Colt case (basically the same rim as .38 S&W), primer only, and it fit, headspaced and fired in my 940.
Les

It was not unusual at one time to fire .38 SC ammunition in .38 S&W revolvers. I have done it myself. The main difference is the slightly smaller diameter of the .38 SC. Both have essentially the same ballistics. And there once was the 9mm Federal cartridge. It was a rimmed 9mm of about the same power level as the 9x19 for use in Charter Arms revolvers. That did not work out so well. The .38 SC case was essentially identical.

Um, yeah, it may not go KABOOM... but I'd be leary
LOTS of .32 S&W that are scrap cause some idjet decided to shoot .32 ACP, there's a reason the put the cartridge on there, you can tell one that's have .32 ACP by the fact that the case head has permanently stamped the frame behind the cylinder...
OH and those two round are closer to each other AND the .32's were usually in a frame that was designed to ALSO handle .38
so there is a safety factor there.

9mm, well make someone is filming if you decide to do it, so when they ask 'how'd ya loose yer hand' you can show them.

Going bang is not an indication of correct head space

Are you saying that in a 940 the seated cartridge was back near the recoil shield?

Or was it excessively far away and the firing pin just happened to be long enough to reach the primer?

I do not have either 38 S&W or 38 SC on hand to experiment with

Are you thinking about loading it to 9MM performance levels? Or 38 S&W levels?

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"Acta non verba"

Colt SSA,
Leta keep in mind that this is an exercise in mid February when weather is not conducive to outside work.
Does the 9mm in a 940 headspace on the case mouth or the moonclip?
In my 940 a factory round in a moon clip measures .004" from the recoil shield. A bare factory round measures over .035 my thickest feeler gauge. The .38 SC that I made up with a rim thickness of .053 measures .032 to the recoil shield. I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn.
Les

My apologies, I did not take into account Pennsylvanian weather. Here in Florida we shoot outdoors year round. When I lived up North, we had plenty of indoor ranges for when it was too cold for outdoor shooting

With the exception of the Smith & Wesson model 547, all S&W revolvers chambered for rimless cartridges are designed to head space on the moon clip.

Many of these revolvers (over 50%) will fire without moon clips because the case mouth will often rest on the cylinder throat. That is just by happenstance, not design

.032" is quite a bit farther than .004"

I have never removed a firing pin from any of my 940s to measure length. With the firing pin traveling to overcome the excessive head space, I would be worried about how continued use might create unexpected wear on the firing pin or the channel it travels in.

In my 940s, 9MM ammunition must be in moon clips, I reamed the cylinders to accept 38 Super

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"Acta non verba"