Second I frame!

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SouthNarc

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You guys were right. These little guns are addictive. I've been on a Pre-War roll here lately but I'm not sure what this little gun actually is. I think it's a 1903 .32 Hand Ejector 2nd Model 5th change. Serial number is 188989. The logo is larger and on the side plate rather than the small one on the left.

I don't think the grips are period correct however the butt has the cut on the back strap like a Regulation Police.

Any help on what this actually is and a date of manufacture would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Craig
 

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That is a beauty. But a puzzle.

The #188989 dates it to 1913 and you're right it's a Model of 1903 (2nd Model) - 5th Change (1910 to 1917).

The serial # on the butt indicates it was originally made for rd butt grips, the only configuration for it's age. The sq butt conversion grips using the rebated backstrap were introduced in 1917. And your set with the flat silver medallions date to the 1930s. The large logo on the side plate dates it from 1935 or later.

So what happened?

Some possible explanations:

1. It was sent back to the factory to be converted to a sg butt and refinished, possibly needing a replacement side plate - however I see no normally applied factory rework stamps on the left side of the grip frame, nor a star following the butt serial #.

2. It languished in inventory until an order for a Regulation Police model was received after 1935, it was pulled from inventory, converted, refinished, and shipped out. It would not have rework stamps in that case.

3. It was a serial numbered rd butt frame in inventory but not completed until after 1935 as a Reg Police.

An historical authentication letter from S&W with the shipping date can shed some light on this mystery.

Also a study of the interior can help verify it's true age based on design changes like the side plate mounted hammer block safety.
 
Hondo44 said:
That is a beauty. But a puzzle.

The #188989 dates it to 1913 and you're right it's a Model of 1903 (2nd Model) - 5th Change (1910 to 1917).

The serial # on the butt indicates it was originally made for rd butt grips, the only configuration for it's age. The sq butt conversion grips using the rebated backstrap were introduced in 1917. And your set with the flat silver medallions date to the 1930s. The large logo on the side plate dates it from 1935 or later.

So what happened?

Some possible explanations:

1. It was sent back to the factory to be converted to a sg butt and refinished, possibly needing a replacement side plate - however I see no normally applied factory rework stamps on the left side of the grip frame, nor a star following the butt serial #.

2. It languished in inventory until an order for a Regulation Police model was received after 1935, it was pulled from inventory, converted, refinished, and shipped out. It would not have rework stamps in that case.

3. It was a serial numbered rd butt frame in inventory but not completed until after 1935 as a Reg Police.

An historical authentication letter from S&W with the shipping date can shed some light on this mystery.

Also a study of the interior can help verify it's true age based on design changes like the side plate mounted hammer block safety.
Click to expand...

Jim thank you so much for that insight I really appreciate it.

Interestingly enough I bought this gun in Houston at Collector's Firearms last week in person passing through on a road trip. Saw it in the case and the price was right for me.

It seems based on this thread I found that I'm not the first forum member to have owned it.

S&W 32 Regulation Police

It wasn't listed in the case as a Regulation Police, just a .32 Hand Ejector. Well finished little I frame that fits with my current pre-war binge that I'm on.

So unlike Larry I didn't buy something expecting something else completely.

The step/cut whatever you call it is a mystery and like is theorized in the other thread, could very well been done by a gunsmith outside of S&W. But if that's the case they did an exceptional job and even with the grips not being period correct, it's still a VERY handsome sample that I plan on keeping.

I may very well letter it just to solve the mystery.
 
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Aw yes, I remember that one now. It could have been done by a gunsmith outside the factory but I would bet money it wasn't. The work and especially the finish is just too perfect. The factory finishing is just never replicated so perfectly outside the factory. There is one more possible explanation: it was an employee's gun who did the work for himself at the factory and wouldn't have stamped it with rework markings. We've seen a few of those.

I'd love to see the letter on that one.

Another piece of trivia; the 32 RP was not roll marked on the barrel REGULATION POLICE like the .38 S&W is.

I agree with Model19man, joining is only $35 and you can ask for a ship date on the members forum. A letter is $100, $75 if you join.
 
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Model19man said:
At the very least it might be a good idea to join the SWCA and ask Dr. Jinks what the ship date is. Nice looking revolver.
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Thank you sir it spoke to me when I saw it in the case.

Doesn't one have to be sponsored by an existing member? I haven't been in the S&W collecting enthusiasts community very long even though I've been in the firearms training industry for 22 years now.
 
Hondo44 said:
Aw yes, I remember that one now. It could have been done by a gunsmith outside the factory but I would bet money it wasn't. The work and especially the finish is just too perfect. The factory finishing is just never replicated so perfectly outside the factory. There's is one more possible explanation: it was an employee's gun who did the work for himself at the factory and wouldn't have stamped it with rework markings. We've seen a few of those.

I'd love to see the letter on that one.

Another piece of trivia; the 32 RP was not roll marked on the barrel REGULATION POLICE like the .38 S&W is.

I agree with Model19man, joining is only $35 and you can ask for a ship date on the members forum. A letter is $100, $75 if you join.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't have the eye of a seasoned collector and the small amount of time I've been in this community I've learned a ton. That being said if this is indeed outside factory work, it's REALLY nicely done either way.
 
Just to add a little to what Jim posted, I observed the following in my database for the .22/32's. I realize that different models can be affected by engineering changes at different times but I offer these as guides only.

The transition from the mushroom shaped extractor rod knob to the larger knurled rod end slightly larger than the rod itself occurred around 1928/1929.

Stamping the Made in USA stamp on the right frame ordered May 1922.

Small S&W logo on the left side transitioned to the larger logo on the right side around 1937/38.

Silver medallion stocks start showing up around 1929.

Again, these are based on observations and may not reflect the actual change date. S&W was known not to waste anything so left over inventory/parts were used up or were on completed guns in the vault and would have hit the street prior to those with these new changes.

Again merely supplied as points of information.
 
It came to me after posting the above that the side plate may have been changed at a later date. You could try removing it to see if the assembly number matches the one in the yoke of the gun. Not sure if the factory replaced it at a later date they would have added a matching assembly number however, absent any dates on the left grip frame it seems like this gun was not altered by the factory if at all.
 
SouthNarc said:
This gun shipped November of 1914 according to Dr. Jinks.

I'm gonna letter it to get more info.
Click to expand...

That will be a very informative letter which will describe it's configuration as shipped in 1914 and confirm it as a .32 Hand Ejector when shipped. But more importantly, having the letter will allow you to take the next step of requesting additional records from the Historical Foundation! If there are any, they will most likely solve the mystery.
 
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Super interesting things I found not even looking.

I'm still waiting on a letter for this revolver however I've found two more examples of 1903 .32 HE 2nd Model 5th change guns that have a rebated back strap.

These are photos from the internet but the ad copy in both explicitly describes them as 1903s and the target model even states that the gun was probably modified at the factory.

I have no other information but it seems based on this two examples that this was perhaps more common than previously thought? Take a look. One can probably tell from the photos which two sites these came from.

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