I want to talk about three accidental discharges. One happened to me, one happened to my dad, one happened to Bill Jordan. For me the number one rule of gun safety is to check that the gun is unloaded. Obviously if you have a discharge that rule was not followed. I think rule number two is to point the gun in a safe direction. In my family we had gun safety drilled into us from an early age.

My discharge occurred in Pottsboro, Texas in the 90's. I was home alone and messing with a Colt SAA in .357 Magnum. I had unloaded the gun and cleaned it. Reloaded it and set it aside for a bit. Picked it up later, pulled the hammer back, pointed it at a gun case on the floor and pulled the trigger. Was very surprised when it discharged! Pier and beam foundation. The bullet went through the gun case, through the floor and lodged in the dirt under the house.

My dad owned a gun store in Dallas. Think this happened in the mid 80's. He was unboxing some guns that had just come in. One was a Marlin lever action in .22 Magnum. He opened the action and saw that the chamber was empty. Unfortunately the magazine was loaded. He closed the action and pulled the trigger. The bullet hit the 10 inch thick masonry and brick wall at the back of the store. No damage done.

The Bill Jordan story is from the 50's and did not have a happy ending. The gun in question was a S&W .357 Combat Magnum. Had someone in his office and they were talking about guns. He had unloaded the gun and dry fired it some. Had then loaded it and put it in a drawer in his desk. Later took the gun out of the desk, pointed it at the wall and pulled the trigger. The bullet went through the wall and struck and killed a Border Patrol agent in the next office. Tragic. If it can happen to Bill Jordan it can happen to anyone.

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David Reynolds

An AD killed forum and SWCA member Charlie Sides when a loaded gun fell out of his safe. I really miss that guy.

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Randy
Provenance nerd

My habit to avoid such is to check every gun immediately if it’s been out my sight, even if I’m the only person in the house.

It can happen...After tens of thousands of rounds and decades of shooting, it happened to me a few years ago.

I had a 12 gauge riot gun that I had put in the safe months earlier. I always unload the chamber on everything, but I neglected to notice there was a round of 00 buckshot in the tube....I racked it and pulled the trigger to clear the tension on the firing pin and blew a hole in the wall, adjacent room wall and into the ceiling. The ceiling joists caught everything and no roof damage. My wife was standing there and screamed like the apocalypse.

Good thing it wasn't a slug.

With handguns, I have three practices that are inviolable. 1- Once I have loaded a handgun, it goes in a holster and is secured. 2- I never holster an unloaded gun. The holster is a reminder to me and an additional step when I draw the gun from it that it is loaded. 3- Whenever I pick up a handgun or draw one from a stored holster, the first thing I do is check its status, even if I drew it from a holster or knew I just unloaded it.

All three of these events describes above were not accidental discharges, they were negligent discharges because the first rule of firearm safety was violated.

Old saying.....No such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent ones.

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Hipcocked & Locked

Yep…muscle memory habit. Just like I always flip the deadbolt lever down when I come back in the house. As soon as I pick up a firearm, I immediately eject the mag and open the action, or swing open the cylinder.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

If you reloaded the revolver and then proceeded to pull the trigger, why was there any surprise that the revolver actually discharged???

There’s no such thing as an accidental discharge, there is always negligence involved. (Unless it’s a P320)

My grandfather who died in 1970 had many sayings. One that I remember well is when he told me the floor was easier to patch than the ceiling. I was dry firing my unloaded .410 shotgun that he gave me at the time. A wise thing to remember.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

I was always told a time or two. A firearm is the very very patient. It will wait forever for you to F…. Up.

"the floor was easier to patch than the ceiling."

I like that.

bdGreen

Every time you pick the gun up, Assume it’s loaded. Even if you just unloaded it and put it down.
I’m a newbie to this and I’ve only been shooting for a year, But the last thing I wanna do is get too happy and confident.
There is still an element of fear I have for these things, And I never want to go away.
I never keep a loaded gun in the house Because mine are strictly for collecting and shooting for pleasure.
However, If I did ever have a loaded gun in the house for self defense, It would be kept exactly the same place all the time and I would know exactly which gun it was to never shoot it for pleasure, And never unload it Except when being oiled and tested, maybe once every couple of years. That way, it is treated unlike any other, Which should be treated as loaded weapons anyway.
I guess I’m saying this out loud, or typing it rather, as a reminder to myself as much as anything.
My buddy, that first took me shooting, told me when holding a gun, Think of it as a laser that is always on, so wherever you are pointing it, it is burning a hole.

Well, I would hope that you would practice occasionally with a self-defense piece.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I always say that firearms and motorcycles can punish the slightest mistake all out of proportion to the initial error.

Not a lot of solid intel on the web about Jordan’s ND, just anecdotal stuff on forums that I’ve found. The stories are all somewhat similar, in that it took place in his office and he killed a fellow agent in the adjacent office. The story I’ve most heard is that he was practicing quick draw at his desk and the fellow agent he killed was actually his beloved boss and mentor. Similar stories, but with details muddled like playing telephone.

I had an ND myself. I’m not ashamed to talk about it because it needs to be a learning experience. Mine happened in 1986 and here are the details:

Dad had always been a revolver guy, so naturally I grew up around them and learned to shoot them first. The only semi auto pistol I had ever fired until I was an adult was an old warhorse 1911 that a friend of Dad’s owned. I became pretty familiar with it and learned to field strip and clean it when I was a teenager. When I joined the Navy, it was pre-Beretta 92, so I was right at home with the 1911 when we had the chance to shoot them. When I returned home after six years in Hawaii, I was eager to add some guns to the collection…actually Dad’s collection
I was in a gun shop and a little automatic caught my eye. It was an Astra Constable in .380 ACP and I thought it looked a lot like Bond’s PPK. I brought it home with a box of ammo and was playing around with it(unloaded, of course…I hadn’t even opened the ammo box yet), becoming familiar with the controls and disassembling it. I put it back together and had to make a head call. I took it and the box of ammo with me intending to load a mag and cycle the slide to see how easily the rounds fed and ejected. Things get a little hazy at this point. I can’t say exactly how it happened, but after I thought I ejected all the rounds and dropped the mag, I pulled the trigger with the muzzle pointed between my bare feet. Glad I was where I was because it scared the out of me! It made a sizable divot in the tile floor and my insoles looked like they got stabbed dozens of times with a small sharp object(all the tile shrapnel). No one else was home and no damage other than my pride, bloody feet, and the tile floor. Dad laughed his butt off when I told him and Mom was really pissed that I shot a hole in her bathroom floor. Got the tile fixed, sold the pistol, and decided to stick to revolvers and 1911’s for awhile. In the end, despite the humbling experience, Dad commended me on at least following rule #2, which always gave him a chuckle considering where I was and what I was doing when it happened.

My ND happened mainly because of my unfamiliarity with that particular firearm, but I disregarded at least a couple of safety rules as well and take full responsibility for that. To me, being familiar with a firearm I’m using is very important. If I were to add a #5 to the list of 4 rules of gun safety, it would be: know your firearm and become familiar with its operation.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

I've had just one. I have a Benelli Montefeltro that I use for dove and occasionally sporting clays. It has a bad habit of not always releasing the round in the magazine in to the receiver when unloading the gun. So pull back the bolt a second time and nothing pops out we assume it is empty. Took it out of the safe one day, bolt open. Let the bolt drive home and then pulled the trigger to take the tension off the firing pin (as someone said above) and created a hole in the carpet in my office. As someone else said above, the floor is easier to patch than the ceiling. It happens.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Unless you're in a boat.

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The best I can with what I got

Bill Jordan’s fatal AD.

Border Patrol Inspector John A. Rector, United States Department of Justice - Immigration and Naturalization Service - United States Border Patrol, U.S. Government

Rector’s daughter chimed in on another forum. She didn’t blame Jordan, and said he was so distraught he had to be heavily medicated.

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Rule of law, not a man.

At an early age my Father and the NRA at Camp Perry taught me all about gun safety. When I was around 14 my Dad came home with the sad news that his co-worker and friend had accidentally killed his 17 year old son while cleaning his rifle. The Father had went upstairs to clean his hunting rifle, the rifle discharged through the floor and killed his son. The son was setting next to his mother on the couch watching TV. This was in the '60's. Later on in the mid '70's I was working and would interact with the father. He would never smile and would discussions would be yes, no, what ever. I think that probably made a bigger impression on me than any safety talk.

PennieRector September 21, 2011,
Join Date: September 21, 2011
Posts: 1
The Firing Line Forums
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Hello I am here to tell you that the story of Bill Jordan accidentally shooting a fellow Border Patrol officer is true. That man was my father, John A. Rector.

I was 13 years old and in the 8th grade, and that has been some 55 years ago, but my memory is very clear. According to the Coroner's inquest, this is the way it happened:

Bill Jordan was showing a pistol, a 357 Magnum, to another man. They were in Bill's office at the headquarters of the San Diego Sector in San Ysidro, CA. The gun was unloaded initially, and Bill was demonstrating how he drew and fired. He then reloaded the gun and put it into a desk drawer.

The conversation continued, and forgetting he had loaded the gun he took it out of the drawer, aimed it at the wall and fired. My father was sitting at his desk on the other side of that wall. The bullet went through the wall and hit him in the head. He died about 3 hours later. There was no wrongful death suit, or anything like that. Bill was so upset that he had to be taken home under sedation and the next day I remember he and his wife coming to our house, and he sobbed as he told us how sorry he was. He and my Dad were friends.

I have often given my story as an example of how ANYONE can have an accident with a gun, no matter how expert you are with them.

My Dad did not see me complete my education, he was not there to walk me down the aisle when I married, nor did he see me graduate from college. He never knew that I had a successful career.

I don't hate Bill Jordan, nor bear him any ill will. I expect he is gone from this earth now too.

I just wanted to set the record straight for those of you in this forum and elsewhere who think this might have been a false story.


Bill Jordan. Colt Border Patrol. Is this Bunk? - Page 2 - The Firing Line Forums

I disagree with some of the sentiments above. I will happily agree that an honest-to-god ACCIDENTAL discharge is much less common than a negligent discharge. But they do happen. They are however exceedingly rare. When they happen they are often caused by equipment failure. I had one myself ages ago. A previously fired Colt 1903 .32 auto decided to slam-fire on the range. Since it was pointed down range at the time and in a safe environment no damage nor injury resulted, but it certainly was an accidental discharge. Caused by a burr on the firing pin.

Wow. The two Bill Jordan stories are shocking.

Some of my safety practices:
1. I am a firm believer in snap caps.
2. For my 22s I use the yellow drywall screw anchors.
3. For dryfiring semiauto pistols I use dedicated magazines. A blued pistol gets a nickel or stainless magazine, a stainless of nickel handgun gets a blued magazine.
4. The only handgun I keep loaded is my bedside duty handgun.

Mine was in 1994. Took the magazine out of my Glock and was dry firing it. Got bored and out the mag back in. Little while later I racked the slide again forgetting I put the mag back in. BANG!! Went through wall. I’m honestly grateful it happened because over 30 years later the scene still
Flashes through my mind when I pick up a gun.

Thank goodness, I've never had a negligent discharge. I credit that to the fact that I've always practiced the 4 basic rules when handling firearms. Before cleaning or handing a firearm to someone, I always double check to be sure that it's unloaded. We are empty nesters, so it's relatively safe for me to keep a couple of handguns loaded and hidden in the house. I also have a couple of handguns that I keep loaded in the gun safe...a little extra security in case I was ever forced to open the safe by some bad actors. Paranoid? Maybe.

My biggest issue is whenever I'm looking around in a gun store or perusing a gun show and the owner hands me a firearm without checking to be sure that it's unloaded. Scary! That's when I leave.

When the OP describes “pulling the trigger” then we have a negligent discharge and nothing accidental about it.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

In the early 80's we carried revolvers in our mid-size (800 officers) PNW agency, but you could carry a personally owned/department approved semiauto. One of the guys had an HK P7, and one night going off shift he took it from the shelf in his locker and placed it on the bench next to him. Another guy came in, did a double-take at the strange, new, exotic piece, and asked if he could handle it. Owner says yes, "but be careful, it's loaded." The admiring officer picked it up, said, "I've heard you have to squeeze the frontstrap, then pull the trigger. But what happens if you pull the trigger, then squeeze the..." BANG!

I was told many years ago the saying, "There are those who have had an ND and there are those who will have and ND".


I unfortunately had one. About 25 years ago I was doing a trigger job on a new RIA 3 1/2" Compact 1911 .45. As many of you know, that entails quite a few total disassembly's and reassembly's. Then trigger pressing numerous times. I often let the gun sit so I could have a trigger test with a "cold" finger to get a better feel. I usually had one loaded gun in most every room of the house, so I left it with a full magazine in it. One day I went into my shop and the gun was laying on my bench off to the right and I unconsciously Picked it up,racked the slide, and pressed the trigger. It had been pointed down and off to the side and the round went through a bottom cabinet and embedded in the concrete foundation behind that.



You can get too familiar with a gun in a particular orientation. So If you are routinely doing trigger jobs, don't leave them laying around, put them away in your safe, "unloaded".

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

As Col. Jeff Cooper and the renowned Gunsite Academy said (SAY!):

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

Rule III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

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Stay Safe...
jd SWCA #3276

When much younger, I ND’d with a small 380 I was not familiar with. Basically, I made the mistake of removing the mag and not clearing the chamber. I did knowingly point it at the ground to drop the hammer, so no harm other than to my drawers.

That experience does make me step through many checks before dry firing anything. I do keep loaded guns around the home, and everything is “loaded” until proven otherwise. Dry fire practice is carried out with snap caps and no ammo in the room.

Bottom line is you can’t be too careful, and it’s easy to get complacent, so don’t.

There is no accidental discharge, only negligence. If you can’t take responsibility for your actions you need not own a firearm. If your inability to comprehend this results in death or injury to another it should result in a prison sentence that aligns with the level of negligence. People go to jail because they “accidentally” kill others in automobiles.

One thing I’ve learned is guns and alcohol do not mix.

I’ve got a .357 diameter hole in an apartment somewhere to prove that.

It is both accidental and negligent...If it can happen to a world class shooter like Jordan and even cause an accidental death, it can happen to anyone, especially the longer you are around firearms and the more you shoot and handle them.

I never thought it would happen to me...until it did and I TAUGHT firearm safety in an academy setting.

just like an automobile accident, look away for a split second and you have merged in the wrong lane or worse.

Excuses are like butt holes, they don’t feed the bull dog when
somebody is dead. Being a Firearms Safety Instructor is not some high degree and it isn’t space science. There would be even less excuse for a negligent discharge for those whose job it is to pay attention. There is no excuse for it. At the very least one who causes death or injury with a firearm should be banned from ever owning one.
Gun Safety is 100% common sense.

OK, buddy...

Here’s a happy story that doesn’t involve an AD or ND. I was at the Beretta booth at the SCI show this last Thursday. A young fellow walked up, I would guess maybe twelve years old, and was drawn to the pistols on display. He picked up a 92 of some sort and tried to retract the slide to check the chamber. He couldn’t get it to come back for some reason, so he immediately returned the pistol to the display. He then picked up another 92 and tried to retract the slide, this time successfully. He carefully checked the chamber, then proceeded to examine it and eventually returned it to the display. He did the same thing with another pistol. In each case, he checked the pistols to see that there was no magazine in place before retracting the slide. Great work!

As he was getting ready to walk away, I told him “good job!” and complimented him on taking the time to check each pistol before handling it further. Someone had started this lad off right.

I've only seen one negligent discharge. I was 14 and hunting with my best friend. we went to climb a fence so I said you know the rules empty the firearms before climbing the fence.
I quickly removed the magazine from my 10-22 and then racked and locked the slide back.
Bob had a new Browning SA-22. He pulled the magazine assembly and dumped his ammo into his hand and then put that in his pocket. He put the magazine assembly back in and then cycled the bolt which had no lock back.
I showed him my empty chamber and asked is yours empty.
I expected him to open the chamber, instead he pointed his gun down and pulled the trigger. Boom, we both stared at each.
"Bob What did you do?"
"You NEVER pull the trigger to show a gun is empty!"
The bullet went between his big toe and second toe. There was a cut along his big toe I bandaged.
I never went shooting with him again, because if it had been pointing at me I could have been dead.
I am anal with my firearms I always check a firearm empty if I plan to pull the trigger. Then I load snap caps for the trigger pulls. I'd rather be anal than dead.

I wonder why no charges were filed against Jordan? Did he keep his job? Granted this was not the technology age but c’mon someone died. Was he untouchable because he wrote books? This is the first I’ve heard of this. On the surface it looks like two tiered justice. But again, I know nothing about it. Hopefully someone here can explain the aftermath.

Yes, he kept his job and retired from the Border Patrol about 7 years later.

From what I've read, the incident was determined to be an accident.

If you tour an older police station or sheriff's office, you will find evidence of ADs.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

All 3 of the examples from the OP are negligent discharges.

I had an accidental discharge when the sear on my Ruger MKIII broke and the gun went full auto when charging it. Because I was mindful of the 4 Rules all rounds went into the dirt at the outdoor range and the only thing damaged was my gun that broke itself.

People with your level of confidence are the prime candidates for ND’s. Bill Jordan was a combat veteran and participated in many real world shootouts. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you. Thinking you’re immune from them is fantasy. Until you’re on your deathbed, you can’t claim to have never had an ND.

Correct...Until just two years ago, I could have crowed the same thing like "I have never had a blah, blah".

It never happens when you think it will. As I said, just ONE second of not paying attention and you can get an AD/NG..Look closely at the chamber, but get distracted about what is in the tube, ASSuming things are one way and they aren't, etc.

Just like car accidents...Somebody is usually at fault, but it is still both an accident and negligence.

I guess there are no automobile accidents, just negligent driving. Still happens though no matter what you call it.

So when I flipped the safety off of my Remington M700 and the gun fired was it negligence?

I do the same. If it's in a holster, it's loaded. If it is not, it is unloaded.

My grandfather was Sammy Safety when it came to guns. To the point of annoyance.
When I was 13, he almost took my foot off unloading his '97 Winchester 12-gauge. Most of you know these will "slam-fire." I never saw a more remorseful man. He didn't speak for hours.

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Because of the metric system?

I had an intentional discharge that turned into an accidental shooting. Happened in probably 2006 or 2007, so late 20’s age for me. The brothers and I were on the deer lease and went to the river to do some plinking. We were sitting on the bank, legs in front of us, shooting down into the far bank and water.
I forgot about scope offset. I looked down through the scope at my target and pulled the trigger on the 10/22. There was an immediate burning sensation in my big toe. I knew immediately what had happened. We rushed off the property and about an hour later pulled into the ER. Got to triage, pulled my boot and sock off expecting to see lots of blood and bones. Nope! Just a nice .22 caliber graze hollowing out the top of the front of the toe.
Asked if they had to report it to LE. Yes, they did. I said, I’m outta here. Went to the parent’s house, doused it alcohol and bandaged it up. A few days later it was fine.
So, now am I not only keenly aware of the muzzle’s direction, but also scope offset on any long gun. Still have the “hole-y” boots and don’t get razzed about it too much anymore.

Skeeter Skelton fessed up to at least three ADs - he shot a hole in his Mom’s bedroom floor with her .380 Colt, he shot the toe off his boot with a Colt SAA, and he killed a mirror in his home with a .32/20 Colt.

Even the Colonel himself, Jeff Cooper, told a story about one of his - he was sitting in his home office, picked up an empty .45 1911 (of course) and dry fired it at a telephone pole outside. Yep. New window required, and no word if he hit the pole.

I’ve had two: a Winchester Model 12 pump from a pawnshop fired the first time I chambered a shell. Straight in the air and it never happened again. I suspect the firing pin was stuck forward and fixed itself thereafter. The other was a used Browning Hi-Power 9mm. The first round was intentional and downrange. The next three in very rapid succession weren’t intentional, but were downrange.

Stuff happens. Keep the muzzle pointed the right way and it will usually work out.

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Rule of law, not a man.

If it happened to me it would be neglect on my part. That’s the point, there are no accidents. Firearm has no brains, if safety fails or negligent discharge due to mechanical failure it is operators responsibility to have muzzle pointed in safe direction. There is no excuse other than negligence for “ accidents”. The word itself is an excuse. One using worn firearms should know there is chance of discharge without pulling the trigger. Even the 97 Winchester in slam fire mode requires finger on trigger. Unless sear is worn so bad it slips from operation. You can look for all the excuses you want, still boils down to human error. I’m 75 and pretty confident I’ll cross the finish line without killing or injuring any innocent bystanders.

I typed accidental discharge into my browser. Brought up a Wikipedia article titled "Unintentional Discharge." Said there were two types. Accidental discharge and negligent discharge. Said forensic firearms examiners typically use more simplistic definitions limited to only two categories: unintentional discharge (no mechanical malfunction involved) and accidental discharge (mechanical malfunction involved).
I'm a simple guy, so will refer to these events in the future as Unintentional Discharge. None of my examples involved a mechanical malfunction.
I usually learn something here. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

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David Reynolds

Following all the advise above I add another. I NEVER dryfire anything!!!!

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Gary
SWCA 2515