I have seen photos of personnel manning SAC missle silos and fighter pilots wearing holstered revolvers and by the shape of the grips it obvious they are S&Ws. Being the M13s had been withdrawn by that time what model revolver were they? 2" M10, M36, M12???

Also when did the military begin buying new M10 revolvers to replace their aging Victory Models?

Missle Security Cops in Wyoming carried Model 15s.

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Eccentric old coot

So funny. I have a friend who was an Air Force missileer in the 1970s but he is so radically anti-gun that I cannot ask him this question - he would have no clue.

Too bad, too - all that hatred energy, wasted for no reason.

the photos I have show them wearing the holsters designed for the M13?

During my 24 months involvement in SE Asia, we all carried the Model 15. Mine had the 4" barrel but some aircrewmen carried the 2" variant.

I believe the AP/SP troops carried 4" Model 15s and I know the dog handlers did.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Me in my younger days, with my issue Model 15 and my non-issue target grips.

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Rule of law, not a man.

My Dad carried this 15-2 sidearm during his tour in Vietnam.He was in the Air Force. My favorite revolver and a tack driver.

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Remain Viable

If they were 2" barreled guns, you may have seen some model 56s, a rare gun in the civilian world that is similar to the 2" model 15.

There are relatively small USAF and Army contracts for post-war model 10s; the Victory Models were used well into the 1980s by report, however.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

By the time the beretta became standard, there were actually more 38 revolvers in service than 1911's! The Air Force had the m15 as standard ( I qualified with one in the mid 90's,almost ten years after adoption of the beretta!) and various investigators had j frames, the navy had victories model tens and even model 19's,the army supplemented 1911 stocks with model tens victories and various colts in aviation and mp units. There is probably a warehouse somewhere with 55 gallon drums full of revolvers stacked to the ceiling

Never saw any new 10s.
Have carried M&Ps.
And of course CM/15s.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I asked the same question a while ago in this thread. Might save some repetition:

Air Force .38 Revolvers

Great pic! It could only be better if it captured two ne'er-do-wells sneaking along the hillside...

Thanks for sharing. Love the shades!

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Because of the metric system?

Pretty sure it was the Model 15 but memories are fleeting. I do know that when I went to basic training in 1964 they first gave us the K22 to shoot and told us since it had the same weight as the .38 we could learn on that first. After a couple sessions with the K22 we went with the Model 15. That is also what I qualified with before deploying to Vietnam in 1970; along with the M16.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

As a C-130 pilot in 1987-1992 I had an S&W M56 as my standard issue. That is a 2" k frame with adjustable sights like a M15 except without the grooves on top, the sight was smooth. I loved that revolver and have a M15 2" as my keepsake now. I believe AF destroyed most of the M56s making it very rare and expensive.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The holsters I've seen on guys in silos are the Murray holster developed for the S&W Aircrewman. They may, in fact, be wearing Aircrewman revolvers. Contrary to popular belief the M13 revolvers were not recalled and all destroyed at one time. They remained in service until they were "surplus to existing needs." There were also quite a few Model 10s with 2 inch barrels purchased by the USAF. I don't think the Model 56 will fit in the Murray holster.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

At one time I was an armor in the Army National Guard It was a helicopter company and we had model 10s for the pilots to carry plus we had one Ruger.

thanks everyone!

BTW, the shipments of 2 inch Model 10s to the USAF started in mid-1960. The Model 56 shipments were in 1962-3.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I was an Army MP in the early to mid 1980's and I carried a 1911A1. Female MP's carried Model-10s or Ruger Speed/Service Six's in .38 Special. MPI (Military Police Investigators) had 2 inch Model-10s or Model-12's. The Beretta M9 was adopted about halfway through my enlistment, but I never saw one. They went to deployable units (82nd Airborne, 101st, etc.) first.

What 38 special ammunition was issued for these military revolvers ?

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I like Ike.

A jacketed ball ammo, just like the .45 ball. I don't recall how hot or the fps speed, but again it was similar to the .45 at around 850fps. I do remember being able to watch the rounds go down range in the proper lighting at the indoor range on Ft. Belvoir.

The stupid kind . . .

M41 Ball ammunition, 130 grain jacketed round nose bullet.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The only sidearm when I was was in the Navy was a 1911 .45 ACP.
SP, PO of the watch, pier guard.
But I retired in 92'.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Hey KWill...I'm glad you stepped in with your wealth of knowledge. That document I posted is credit of KWill also.

I was issued a shoulder holster to carry my M56 concealed under my flight suit. It was an early nylon rig but I don't still have it or remember the make. When I moved into Spectre we had the Berettas and I don't know how much longer the airlift crews carried the M56.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Our local navy base, NAS Whiting Field, were using Victory Models in the early 70's. They went to the 1911A1 about 1975, but after an epidemic of AD's, they went to new round butt M10's. Used those until they got the Beretta M9's.

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Retired Dep Sheriff & Armorer

during my time with usaf firearms, the model 15 was the go-to gun of the service. they were purchased with target hammer/trigger setups, and most that i saw were 4 inch barrels.
the afosi (investigators) had 5 shot .38s, probably chief's specials.
we used a lot of wadcutters in small arms training on the range, but the issue ammo was fmj.

Yoda, there were always 2 revolvers at the launch control center. The 2 buttons were far enough apart that one person couldn't launch and the .38 hanging next to each button was to shoot anyone messing with the other button. That may be why he doesn't like guns. being responsible like that might have been too much. Or there was a shooting, who knows. I never saw one out of the holster to ID them. Any side arms the SP's had were M-15's. Supposedly there were 2 different lots of .38 FMJ loads, one much hotter than the other.

The only ammo I ever had was the PGU12/B. Its the one in middle with the pushed in bullet. I have no idea why it was made like that. It seemed pretty weak when we qualified with it.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Is Spectre the AC-130 gunship?


As an AF cop, I carried the Victory Model most, occasionally a .45 auto. The Combat Masterpiece was in short supply, and only officers and senior NCO's had them at my base in Denver. One officer carried his own K-38 then and another had a snub Colt .38 with hammer shroud.


No one seemed to care much about holsters, and I and another new guy just out of AP School were told to go downtown and buy holsters, as Supply was out of them. I wore mainly thumbsnap Threepersons styles from Bianchi and Safariland and a Jordan type made by a leather shop back home in Dallas, for the .45.


At a remote radar site in Newfoundland, we had only .45's, as the treaty said that Canada got all the gear when the USAF left. I swapped out some parts to get an all-Colt one, with wide hammer spur and all checkered surfaces that were grooved on later guns. We had a few Colts, but mainly Remington-Rands. No Ithacas. I was the only gun enthusiast in my unit at both bases. Relatively few USAF people seemed to be "into" guns. The exception was the Rod & Gun Club, where we had mainly hunters.


Sometimes, I wore my own Colt Gold Cup .45 bought in the BX at a nearby SAC base. But some grouch told the base commander, and we got orders to carry only issued sidearms and to wear holsters. I had sometimes just shoved the gun in my waistband while acting as desk sgt. and radar access door monitor. I wore my .45 in a Safariland holster, basket-stamped and lined, but have forgotten the model number and no longer have it. The revolver version was Model 29, and I do have several of those. I also had a USGI M-1916 .45 holster, and wore it as the spirit moved me.


BTW, I was one of the few AP's at my base in Denver who knew how to use the .45 auto. I had one that was a WWII Lend-Lease gun, bought in Denver. But I couldn't carry it on duty. My only other handgun then was a S&W .455 MK II that the British had sold as surplus. I paid $31.58 for that gun, with tax. I bought it at Gart Bros., I think, but could have been at Dave Cook, the other big gun store downtown.
Today, a .455 that nice (about 90 % condition) can easily cost $1200!


Military .38 ammo in WWII had a 158 grain metal jacket at a velocity of a nominal 860 FPS. There were also tracer rounds, for night signaling by downed aircrews. I think the tracers were manly issued to USN and USMC crews in the Pacific.


By the Vietnam war, we had mainly M-41 ball ammo that used 130 grain jacketed bullets at a pretty weak velocity. I had very little confidence in it. Our section NCOIC took unit funds and bought some Hi-Speed .38-44 ammo downtown, and I liked that much better. We didn't fire enough of it to loosen our guns, as we mainly qualified with commercial lead WC loads.


USMC embassy guards carried a variety of S&W .38's and many Ruger Speed-Six, all blue. Some aviation and MP units also had those Rugers. I think they were marked as US property and had lanyard rings.


Both round and sq. butt M&P/Model 10's have seen very extensive use with MP and aviation units. Some Army pilots had S&W snub .38's, some Airweights. Some also put M-16's in their helicopters or light scout planes.


I noticed in news photos that Prince Harry in Afghanistan wore a Browning 9mm, and carried a SAR-80 rifle as aa Apache pilot. Most aircrew can't carry rifles aboard their planes. If a fighter pilot bails out, his only weapons are his handgun and his knife.

I flew Hueys in the Army for 6 years. We had both S&W Model 10's RB and Ruger Service-six with RB and lanyard loops. Yeah, a RB on a Ruger Service-six should be a Speed-six, but the frames were indeed marked "Service-six". The Model 10's were plain commercial blue guns. I don't recall any special markings. There was no lanyard loop, nothing. The Rugers had "US" stamped on them. We had both in every unit I was in, and there were enough that you could choose which.

I only ran into two CID guys and they had 2" Colt Detective Specials. They had a case going that had some guy selling govt property and a bunch of it was aircraft parts, so they had us figure out what was what, value, etc. from the NSN's. They found most of it in some guy's garage where he was trying to build a monster truck with a turbine engine.

The MP dog handlers had .38 revolvers. They seemed to have both the S&W and Ruger as well. They needed one free hand to control the dog, so the wheel gun was easier to deal with.

I know a couple guys that are flying helicopters in the Army today, and they all carry M4's in the cockpits of 60's and 47's. CPT Wales (Prince Harry) flew Apaches. it's pretty tight in there, but there's a space behind the seats for your gear. More room than the Cobra did. I don't know about US Aapches, but the US Army has rifle racks now at the crew stations of the 60 and 47, and did in the 58. You still wear your sidearm, because what you wear is the only thing you can count on having.

For ammo, we used the 130gr FMJ, which is the same stuff that comes in WWB, or Federal, etc. Not exactly "stout".

For holsters we had a full flap hip holster. It wasn't state of the art, but it did the job and was pretty tough. We also had a shoulder holster that had a split portion in the front to draw and the weapon was held in place by a spring. No retention strap or anything. They didn't hold onto the gun very well. Folks would wrap the lanyard around the holster, or even use 100MPH tape to secure the weapon. The last thing anyone wanted to do was loose a weapon in the field. The survival vest had a nylon holster sewn on it. It had two retention straps so you didn't loose your weapon during a crash sequence.

it seems like we have a lot of veterans here with varying experiences. i know some of you are vietnam era, or before. some of the folks witnessed weapons in different us bases and some overseas.
maybe we should explain our posts with time and location. certainly the supply chain "rippled" from time to time.

As an MP dog handler in Vietnam, 1971/72, I carried an M16, no handgun. In our "armsroom" we also had a couple of M79s and shotguns, one AK47, and maybe a 1911A1. I never saw another handler carry anything but an M16.

At DaNang I occasionally flew O-2Bs with the 9th SOS and we were issued 4-inch M-15s with our survival vests. From 1975-1977 I flew C-141s then transitioned to C-5s from 1977-1991. As Aircrew we carried either 2-inch M-10s or M-15s depending on what Command Post had available. In RVN we carried FMJ but as Aircrew we carried three rounds of bean bag loads and three rounds of JHP. Even though we carried snubs we qualified with 4-inch M-15s.

I was in 1st Ranger battalion from 1975 to 1978. I carried an M-60 machine gun and had a 1911 as a sidearm, as did our guys who carried the M-67 RR, our officers and senior NCO (Command Sergeant Major). Never saw a revolver issued.

GS

Interesting difference between the services. My second tour coincided with yours (Sept '71-Sept '72). I used to watch the AF dog handlers make their rounds. All of them were packing 4" Model 15 Combat Masterpieces.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Yes, some differences, and some similarities. Handguns were not appropriate for the mission of the teams where I was assigned.

Not sure what's meant here. Not appropriate, or just not allowed?


If you mean that you might see infantry combat and need rifles, a sidearm wouldn't make having a rifle any less appropriate. I think some AF dog handlers have had both, as did members assigned to LE and general base security duties.


In current photos, I see pics of AF security personnel assigned to protecting aircraft inc. AF ! to assist Secret Service agents, to patrol and SWAT assignments packing both Beretta M-9's and various shoulder-fired arms, usually the M-4 carbine.


I'm speaking here of actual USAF personnel, not civlian contract cops that some bases employ. I've never seen pics of them with other than handguns. Can't tell the make or model, and it no doubt varies with the base and the contract police firm.


I've also seen uniformed men and cars labeled US Navy Police. Doesn't the Navy still have Shore Patrol and Marine MP units? I saw one Navy guy with a badge, so I guess he's some kind of military cop. He was working a gate at a base where I stopped to ask directions. Neither of us seemed to have time for talking, so I couldn't ask questions. I've also seen a photo of an AF cop and some Navy equivalent. They were working a gate, probably on some joint service base.


When the Muslim officer went ape at Ft. Hood some years back and shot a bunch of unarmed personnel, it was a female contract police officer who captured him, not MP's. I think this worthy is still in prison, although he was sentenced to death many months ago. Anyone have any info on that case?