possible for revolver to discharge if hammer is hit?
- Thread starter honkylips
- Start date
Welcome to the forum.
No. S&W revolvers with external hammers made since WWII have an internal hammer block safety that prevents the hammer from moving forward unless the trigger is back. It’s not a dumb question and it’s safe to carry them fully loaded.
The hammer block rattles if you shake the gun.
No. S&W revolvers with external hammers made since WWII have an internal hammer block safety that prevents the hammer from moving forward unless the trigger is back. It’s not a dumb question and it’s safe to carry them fully loaded.
The hammer block rattles if you shake the gun.
BillCa
Member
Modern, post-war S&W revolvers will not discharge if dropped or struck on the hammer.
Revolvers made up to 1941 may accidentally discharge if dropped. Revolvers made during the war years are "suspect" as some were retrofitted with the hammer-block safety and some were not.
Revolvers made up to 1941 may accidentally discharge if dropped. Revolvers made during the war years are "suspect" as some were retrofitted with the hammer-block safety and some were not.
carguychris
Member
Two things...
First, just to make sure the OP isn't confused, any S&W revolver can discharge if it's dropped with the hammer cocked. The action of cocking the hammer- whether it's done DA or SA- retracts the hammer block.
This is yet another reason not to manually cock the hammer unless you intend to immediately fire the gun.
Second...
IMHO the earlier pivoting block is nearly, but not quite, as safe as the later sliding block. However, it needs to be periodically checked for cleanliness and proper functioning. I know this doesn't have anything to do with the OP's 329PD, but OTOH I don't want any owners of 1915-1944 revolvers to conclude that their gun is totally unsafe.
First, just to make sure the OP isn't confused, any S&W revolver can discharge if it's dropped with the hammer cocked. The action of cocking the hammer- whether it's done DA or SA- retracts the hammer block.
This is yet another reason not to manually cock the hammer unless you intend to immediately fire the gun.
Second...
I'm being a little nitpicky, but IMHO this comment is slightly misleading. All S&W revolvers have a hammer block starting with the .38 M&P Model of 1905 4th Change in 1915. However, the 1915-1944 models have a pivoting hammer block that (a) doesn't block the entire face of the hammer and (b) may get jammed in the retracted position by dirt in the action. (The post-1944 sliding block is intentionally designed to cause trigger return problems if it starts getting jammed with dirt, thereby alerting the shooter that something is wrong.)
IMHO the earlier pivoting block is nearly, but not quite, as safe as the later sliding block. However, it needs to be periodically checked for cleanliness and proper functioning. I know this doesn't have anything to do with the OP's 329PD, but OTOH I don't want any owners of 1915-1944 revolvers to conclude that their gun is totally unsafe.
narc766
Member
They are not supposed to but it is possible if there is a malfunction with the hammer block. The term used for this is "pushing off" I recently shot a brand new 617 that when you cocked it you could push the hammer forward w.out touching the trigger and the hammer would fall and the gun would go off. The gun was sent back to the factory and fixed in no time.
carguychris
Member
The hammer block is not designed to block the hammer once the revolver is cocked; see my earlier post. If the revolver pushes off, this is indicative of a flaw in the SA sear, not the hammer block.
The hammer block only works when the hammer and trigger are at rest.
IMHO an S&W revolver should not be cocked until you have assumed a stable stance and are pointing the gun at the target with the intent to fire. IMHO you should never walk even a single step with a cocked revolver, holster one, or cock it while pointing somewhere else (such as at the ground) and then bring it up on target. Any of these actions creates a risk of dropping the gun and killing yourself or someone else with a negligent discharge.
I don't mean to sound too lawyerlike, but it just ain't safe!
Unfortunately, this is one of those gun safety rules that Hollywood breaks frequently.
morgan in nm
Member
Not to impede too much in this discussion but to add, S&W's hammers were disigned to break if such a fall occurred. Doesn't necessarily mean that it will but I have seen it on repair guns.
You're right Chris, the hammer block does fall when you cock the hammer. But unless your finger is on the trigger, the hammer block will stop the hammer fall. In an UNLOADED gun, drop a new pencil or a Bic type pen (with a flat end). Holding the muzzle straight up, gently tap the trigger with another pencil. The pen will not fly out as it will doing the same drill deliberately pulling the trigger. Joe
SmithSwede
Member
My understanding of the post-war hammer block is that it serves TWO functions.
The first is that if the hammer is left uncocked, the hammer block fits between the nose of the hammer and the frame, so that it is virtually impossible for the gun to discharge if the gun is dropped on the hammer. In this situation, in order for the firing pin to move forward and fire the cartridge, the hammer block would have to fail. But that's not all. The rebound slide also fits under the bottom of the hammer and prevents it from moving if the trigger is forward, so the bottom of the hammer and/or the rebound slide would probably also have to fail.
As I understand it, the second function of the hammer block is to prevent (or minimize) the chance of a COCKED revolver firing if it is dropped. In this situation, cocked revolver is dropped, the cocked hammer is jarred off the sear, and hammer moves forward under pressure from the mainspring. But because your finger is not on the trigger, the trigger also moves forward under pressue of the rebound spring, thereby raising the hammer block. Although the hammer is speeding towards teh frame, the hammer block wins the race, thereby blocking the hammer from hitting the primer.
My only source for this second function is an old article, I think in the American Rifleman. Supposedly Hellstrom would demonstrate this second feature to visitors by cocking a revolver and throwing it violently around the room.
I could be totally wrong about this. Can anyone confirm that the hammer block does have this second feature?
I suppose one way to test it would be to load a cartridge with only a primer, put it into a beater revolver, cock the hammer, and whack it with a rubber mallet until the hammer falls.
The first is that if the hammer is left uncocked, the hammer block fits between the nose of the hammer and the frame, so that it is virtually impossible for the gun to discharge if the gun is dropped on the hammer. In this situation, in order for the firing pin to move forward and fire the cartridge, the hammer block would have to fail. But that's not all. The rebound slide also fits under the bottom of the hammer and prevents it from moving if the trigger is forward, so the bottom of the hammer and/or the rebound slide would probably also have to fail.
As I understand it, the second function of the hammer block is to prevent (or minimize) the chance of a COCKED revolver firing if it is dropped. In this situation, cocked revolver is dropped, the cocked hammer is jarred off the sear, and hammer moves forward under pressure from the mainspring. But because your finger is not on the trigger, the trigger also moves forward under pressue of the rebound spring, thereby raising the hammer block. Although the hammer is speeding towards teh frame, the hammer block wins the race, thereby blocking the hammer from hitting the primer.
My only source for this second function is an old article, I think in the American Rifleman. Supposedly Hellstrom would demonstrate this second feature to visitors by cocking a revolver and throwing it violently around the room.
I could be totally wrong about this. Can anyone confirm that the hammer block does have this second feature?
I suppose one way to test it would be to load a cartridge with only a primer, put it into a beater revolver, cock the hammer, and whack it with a rubber mallet until the hammer falls.
SmithSwede
Member
Doh! I didn't see that pharmer has already suggested a more elegant and less destructive test for the second function.
I'm going to try it when I get home.
I'm going to try it when I get home.
That's my understanding too. As to your other ideas, remind me not to loan you any of my guns!
Amen.
cmj8591
Member
It is impossible for a S&W revolver to fire unless the trigger is pulled. Having said that, this assumes that the gun has not been tampered with. IE: the rebound spring has not been clipped or replaced by a weak spring. In addition to the hammer block already mentioned, there is also a hump on the rebound slide and the hammer tail which prevents the hammer from going forward unless the trigger is held to the rear during firing. This means that if you drop a cocked revolver and it hits the deck and the hammer falls, the trigger will recover to the forward position causing the rebound slide to go forward and stop the forward motion of the hammer BEFORE it comes in contact with the primer. This is why you should not clip or change the rebound spring.
shawn mccarver
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It is EXTREMELY unlikely. Something would have to break or the hammer block would have to be missing.
The hammer is held back by the hammer block, which positively prevents forward movement of the hammer.
Since your hypothetical involves the revolver being dropped on its rear, you do not have to worry about inertial discharge by the forward movement of the frame mounted firing pin, which is only an issue if the revolver is dropped on its front end.
If the revolver were dropped on its front end, from a sufficiently high distance, it is possible, in theory, that the weapon could fire by inertia as the frame mounted firing pin is held back only by a spring, which can break, be overcome or otherwise fail. The distance of the drop, however, would have to be all out of proportion to any reasonable drop, and it is EXTREMELY unlikely.
The hammer mounted firing pin might be safer from such an inertial type firing scenario, but on the other hand, the old style hammers with firing pins (hammer noses) occasionally broke or sheared and, I suppose you could, in theory, possibly, get an inertial discharge in that system as well. Again, we are talking theory here and I have NEVER heard of it in actual practice.
The possibilities of an inertial discharge are so remote that I have NEVER heard of it happening. I would imagine an engineer can figure out how great a distance a given revolver would have to fall onto its front to get an inertial discharge with the frame mounted firing pin, but I am sure it would have to be quite a bit.
The bottom line is that S&Ws are completely drop safe, provided all parts are present and nothing is broken.
shawn mccarver
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I agree completely as to both the first and second functions of the hammer block.
If the hammer is at rest, the HB prevents it from touching the firing pin.
The HB only stays in its DOWN position (deactivated) as long as the trigger is held to the rear. Thus, as explained, if the hammer starts down by any other method, the trigger also begins to return forward and as it does, the HB raises back to its "intercept" (Safe) position. That is, of course, why you MUST always release the trigger to let it proceed forward when de-cocking a revolver. If you hold the trigger back to de-cock, as you see so often in film, you are in trouble!
bountyhunter
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Even if the blocking bar safety is removed, the gun still will not fire if dropped or struck on the hammer spur UNLESS THE HAMMER BREAKS. The rebound slide blocks the lower portion of the hammer from moving to allow a primer hit. Only if that part of the hammer breaks off and allows the top part to be driven forward could it fire without the safety bar... so, it's pretty safe with or without the RATTLE bar.Originally posted by honkylips:
Thanks for the welcome, and for the quick reply. Was wondering what that rattle was
