Model 19 hammer won't cock double action

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stang68

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Yesterday at the range, the first indication of a problem with my Model 19-2 was the cylinder release would not move far enough to release the cylinder (not an extractor problem). After trying a few things I finally got the cylinder open by pulling the hammer all the way back, pulling the trigger while holding the hammer and slowly releasing it. After removing the unfired cartridges I tried to dry fire double action and the cylinder rotated but the hammer moved forward slightly and then back to its original position. While it's like this it won't work double action, the cylinder has excessive rotational movement when I try to turn it, and I can open the cylinder. I then found that if I pull the hammer back a very little bit, it sets up at that point and I can dry fire double action one time, and then it's back to the condition where the cylinder will release but the hammer moves forward when I try to dry fire double action. I also found out that when the hammer is in the position where I can dry fire double action, the cylinder won't release. I hope this is understandable, it was hard for me to describe. I'm assuming that I probably can't fix it and that the gun needs to go to a gunsmith when I can afford it but I was just wondering if anyone knows what the problem is and if it's going to be a very expensive fix at S&W or something that a local gunsmith can probably fix.
 
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Check the extractor rod and make sure it didn't loosen up under recoil. This could freeze up your cylinder as described. It's the rod that sticks out of the front of the cylinder when you swing the cylinder out. To tighten, you turn counter-clockwise. To loosen, you turn clockwise from the front.
 
Thanks Texagun for the recommendation but as I said, it's not an extractor problem. Some of the symptoms I described will occur when the cylinder and extractor are completely removed from the gun. It seems to be an internal problem in the action but what specifically I don't know.
 
I am no expert in this area, but here goes... Can you cock the hammer single action? In double action, it sounds like the double-action sear may not be grabbing the hammer to start it rearward. If you know how to remove the sideplate, I'd do so and slowly work the action - holding the hammer and trigger down with fingers of the other hand just to keep them in proper alignment. If you are not familiar with the inner workings and have another similar working S&W you can compare them side-to-side. I am sure someone else knows exactly what is wrong by your description. But without that expert help, this is what I'd do for starters. Do you know the history of the gun? Was it possibly worked on?
 
M19

Perhaps the rebound is not returning fully and the hammer is completely forward. Check to see if the hammer nose is protruding beyond the recoil shield.
 
Answers to the 2 previous posts: It seems to work fine in single action, cylinder rotates and locks when I pull the hammer back, dry fires correctly. The rebound may not be working correctly, when it's in the mode where double action isn't working and I pull the hammer back just a little bit and it stays at that position, it reminds me of the half cock with my Marlin 1894. When it's at this point, I can pull the trigger and it will work double action. I've compared the hammer position with my Model 66 and can't really ascertain anything. As far as the history, I had an endshake and timing problem corrected by a local gunsmith that specializes in S&W about 15 months ago, then I sent it to S&W to cut the forcing cone because of too much B/C gap, they also replaced the cylinder at that time, said that the chambers were expanded. I've only had it for 2.5 years, never shot any hot magnum loads in it but apparently previous owners did. I know how to take off the side plate only from reading about how to do it on this forum, have never done it.
 
What Maxw said, or the safety foot at the bottom of the hammer that rests in the shelf of the rebound slide broke/ bent, allowing the hammer to move too far forward and when the trigger engages in DA mode, it's binding unless the hammer's pulled back a little.

It may be as simple as cleaning it up inside or replacing a hammer.

Since you know how to take off the sideplate, both of those should be simple enough.
Can you post a picture of it with the side plate off, with it where it will not work? That would really help.
 
I'll take off the sideplate tomorrow and see if I notice anything, will try to get good pictures and post them. Thanks to all.
 
Before you pull the sideplate, check two things.

First open the cylinder, pull back on the cylinder latch, and dry fire the gun and hold the trigger back after the hammer falls. Now, look at the firing pin as it protrudes in front of the recoil shield. Then release the trigger to reset and see if the firing pin retracts. If it isn't doing this, you have an issue with the hammer block transfer bar not retracting the hammer from the fully forward position. From your description I suspect that the rebound slide may be gummed up with old oil and a simple cleaning may be all that is needed to correct this problem. It may also be a broken rebound spring. BTW, if you hammer block safety isn't functioning properly, DO NOT CARRY THIS GUN WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER, IT IS NOT DROP SAFE IN THIS CONDITION.

The second thing to check is the cylinder latch. Close the cylinder and then try pulling the cylinder latch to the rear while dry firing the gun in double action. I don't think this is the cause of your problem but it's worth checking out because a sticky cylinder latch can lock up the hammer. BTW, if the hammer isn't in the rebound position, it will prevent the cylinder release from going fully forward to release the cylinder. Another indication that your most likely having issues with the rebound slide.

Following is a link to a flash player that really does a good job of illustrating how everything is tied together. Play around with it and it will help a lot in understanding how each part functions. If you keep hitting the FIRE button it will cycle through an explanation for each part.

http://www.rattlesnakeridge.org/flash/SW357Mag1.swf

Tip, get yourself a very large ziplock bag to put the gun into when you pull the slideplate, small springs have a tendancy to go "zing" when you start taking the parts out.

Finally, the hammer block safety nests into a channel in the side plate, so if the sideplate doesn't seem to want to seat properly, play around with the positioning of that safety until you get it right. As for lube, any good quality white lithium grease is sufficient and you only need a light film, not globs of it.
 
Scooter: After opening the cylinder I can't dry fire until pulling the hammer back to what I described as the "half cock" position, then after dry firing and releasing the trigger, the firing pin does retract. The cylincer latch does not go to the rear when I try to fire double action and again I cannot dry fire double action unless I move the hammer back to the "half cock" position. Question: Can I use brake parts cleaner after I remove the side plate to clean it up if I don't find anything broken or will that harm the blueing? What can I safely use if not the brake cleaner?
 
De-Chlorinated brake cleaner works fine. Gun Scrubber also works fine. It shouldn't harm the blueing at all. I would keep it away from the grips.
 
I'm not having a good day, after filling out a reply and inserting photos I lost the reply so here goes again. Today I removed the sideplate and cleaned it with brake cleaner. I can see what the problem is but don't know what's causing it, nothing appears to be broken. After dry firing the hammer goes to far forward and the seer? (tang on the trigger assembly) does not get positioned under the hammer assembly to be able to lift it. When I pull the hammer back to where I've previously described as "half cock", the seer is positioned under the hammer and it will fire double action, however the cylinder release will not move forward and the cylinder cannot be released when in the "half cock" position. The first 2 photos are after dry firing with the hammer too far forward, the 3rd photo is after I've pulled the hammer back.


afterdryfire1.jpg


afterdryfire2.jpg


hammerpulledbacktohalfcockposition.jpg
 
Wow, never saw anything like that. In the top two, can you push the trigger farther forward to get the sear down more? I don't have any sideplates off right now but I also thought the front part was higher in the cylinder stop notch.

Yup, with the hammer 'half-cocked', it blocks the bolt back, no way to open the cylinder
 
As best I can tell from the photos, one of three things is wrong: Either 1) someone has replaced the DA sear and not fitted the new one, or 2) the rebound slide has been reassembled into the gun out of alignment with the trigger strut, or 3)The trigger stop has loosened and wedged in a position where the trigger is binding and not returning fully forward. Without the gun in my hand, I could not be certain which. After looking at the pics again, it looks like the cylinder stop might be out of position, which could also keep the trigger from fully returning. Check that, too.
 
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38-44HD45 said:
As best I can tell from the photos, one of three things is wrong: Either 1) someone has replaced the DA sear and not fitted the new one, or 2) the rebound slide has been reassembled into the gun out of alignment with the trigger strut, or 3)The trigger stop has loosened and wedged in a position where the trigger is binding and not returning fully forward. Without the gun in my hand, I could not be certain which. After looking at the pics again, it looks like the cylinder stop might be out of position, which could also keep the trigger from fully returning. Check that, too.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I appreciate all the help I've been getting. I'll return to checking it out tomorrow, and check the cylinder stop. I'm going to be getting the evil eye from my wife before long, all I've been doing the last 2 days has been related to that gun and it's my turn to cook dinner.
There's been no work whatsoever on that gun recently and it's been to the range quite a few times since it was last worked on, at least 300 rounds with no problems until the other day when I got one round out before it messed up.
 
38-44HD45 said:
3)The trigger stop has loosened and wedged in a position where the trigger is binding and not returning fully forward.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the pictures stang68. I have never had the sideplate off of any of my K-frames that have trigger stops, have never seen that little screw under the middle sidplate screw.
 
YEA!! It's fixed! I decided to take one more crack at it. After looking at it again it looked as if maybe the rebound wasn't going all the way forward so I cocked the hammer, stuck the plastic tip for the brake cleaner into the hole in the front side of the trigger that the tip of the rebound goes in and gave it a good spray, blew it out with the compressor and lo and behold,don't know if that's what did it or not but it now works great. Tomorrow I'll try to figure out the areas that I need to put a touch of lithium grease on and put it back together. Thanks for all the help everyone. I was initially worried about what I was going to be getting myself into having never had a side plate off or seen the insides of a revolver but I now know that it was nothing to worry about. If it needs repair in the future I might just take a crack at it myself after getting the Jerry M. instructional dvd.
 
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Glad you got it working. Only now, looking at your photos, somehow the rebound slide was not moving fully forward so the hammer was not being lifted into position. There must have been some mis-alignment between the trigger strut where it seats into the rebound slide and your lubrication allowed it to seat properly. We all learned a little something here, thanks for taking the time to post up the photos. I say, take the wife out to dinner!
 
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