I was shooting my loads today, using Starline 45 auto rim brass, as well as some 45 acp in Rimz polymer clips. I had great difficulty shooting in double action most of the time, as the revolver was getting stuck. Then on some rounds I needed to thumb the hammer back and move the cylinder manually to advance it. After the rounds were all fired this got better, but not always. Some rounds were smooth and no problem, but most were not.

I know this is not normal. Is this because of my loads (maybe primers not deep enough?) or the brass? It's weird, I had similar problems in the past shooting Wolf 45acp in the Rimz clips.

Meanwhile, I have a set of 6 snap caps in a metal moonclip and the gun works fine. This gun was bought new, and has a couple hundred rounds through it so far.

Is this likely an ammo/reloading problem, or does it need to go back to S&W for some tlc?

Highly likely you have unburned powder under the ejector star.

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Centennial Every Day

Clean it up and then take it out and shoot it again WITHOUT the Rimz. It could be fouling under the star, but I never experience this problem unless I'm using a really chunky powder. I avoid the plastic moonclips; I believe they are a bit thicker.

Dave Sinko

Yeah, but this problem was happening with nice new Starline auto rim brass! I will check under the extractor star, but I'm usually on the overcleaning side and I doubt I missed a spot. The gun had this problem even the first time it was shot, but I figured the rimz were no good.

Also check to make sure that the ejector rod is not comming unscrewed.

I had one that got carbon in the firing pin channel and it would not let the firing pin retract all the way and the ammo was dragging on the end of the firing pin as it went around. Cleaned and installed new firing pin and spring. Problem solved. Easily checked.

My 626 Mountain Gun did the same thing, turned out to be a rather large chunk of grit (powder) under the extraction star.

Check the FRONT end of the cylinder and barrel for lead deposits. I recently experienced binding due to that problem with a batch of bullets from a different manufacturer than I have previously used. There was extreme leading on my 642 with taget loads of 38 Special, bound up the gun in 50 rounds.

It sounds like high primers to me, since fired cases did not have the binding problem. I have had similar problems with either tight primer pockets or pockets which had powder build up. Either situation can cause different seating depth with the same arm pressure on the press while seating the primer. Most of my priming is done with a hand primer now since it is easy to feel the seating and check each case as I prime.

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

I had a tiny thread wrapped round the ejector rod/star junction once - that was all it took to yield ftfs andodd dragging. Also, I assume you make your ammo. Do you have that fourth hole Lee 'factory' crimper/resizer die? If not, it is well worth the cost. My Dillon 550 - with a single seater/crimper - produced many odd rounds that were, in some cases, responsible for dragging at least, and some prevented the cylinder's closure at worst. It did this to ACP & AR cases - and all I use are Starline. That single crimper/carbide resizer did the trick.

Another possibility - too much b/c gap - the cylinder lacks proper headspace. The S&W allowable range for b/c gap is .004-.010" check it with a set of feeler gauges. It should be very consistent. Too much b/c gap sets the cylinder back - lessening the headspace - causing drag. My much used, actually, my SPC revolver, first 4" 625-8 literally closed down on the fc - it's b/c gap was 0-.002+" - it was canted, too. S&W fixed it gratis. Good luck!

Stainz

Well, it came back from S&W the other day. The printout form showed that they repaired the yoke to deal with endshake, and they also replaced the chromed hammer with another one (since some of the chrome plating was wearing off) All on their dime both ways. Left on a Monday, came back Friday the next week.

So I am quite pleased with the service, but now I need to get to the range and see how she performs.

Just make sure when you eject your cases, you point the muzzle up. You don't want any unburnt power flakes getting underneth the extractor. That is a sure fire way of causing what you describe. Also, check your moon clips to insure that they are all flat and in good condition.

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NRA Benefactor Member

The centerfire revolvers I shoot the most use moon clips, either the 6-shot for the .45 ACP revolvers, or 8-shot with .38 Special or .357 Magnum for my Model 627. It is amazing how small of a grain of powder (or other crud) under the ejector star will tie up the gun! The other things that can tie it up are high primers, a bent moon clip, a case with an out-of-specification rim thickness, and an ejector rod that has unscrewed itself. If you don't find one of these things, it is time to talk to Smith & Wesson or someone with more experience than me.

Good luck!

I had the same problem when I first got my 625. Turns out that the torsion hand spring with the long end in the trigger. It ended up bending the spring, replaced the spring and no problems since.

Vince

After the last range trip, I've been dry firing it, and I notice that on 2 of the cylinders there is a noticeable "catch" when firing double action. If you are staging the trigger, you can feel it really stop, and require some additional effort for the trigger to break. On the other 4 cylinders it is nice and smooth.

Should I bother sending this gun back to S&W again? What would I ask them to fix? I'm not expecting an action job for free, but clearly 2 of the cylinders are not the same as the others. I have other revolvers from them and they do not exhibit this problem.

I hate to say it, but so far this 625JM has been sort of a lemon.

Yes, send it back. Call for a shipping tag, explain the situation, and let them have a chance to make it right (I know, they already had a chance, but...)

It's dissappointing and frustrating to have a gun that starts to look like a shuttlecock, but once the factory has had their mitts on it, the best bet is to have them make right, and make sure they know (in a nice, non-aggressive way) that you will not accept less than that.

Good Luck, and I'm sure you'll like your JM once its squared away ;D

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I sent it back. The tech on the phone suggested either a "long ratchets" problem or a burr in the cylinder notches. Either way he said they could make it right, and to also note in the letter that it was the second time around. Here's hoping they get it right. I'm really looking forward to shooting this pistol once it is fixed.

It is so cool to be reloading. To think I originally bought this thinking I could shoot crummy Wolf 45 acp for less than the price of brass factory 38 special.

Good luck with the repair, and keep sending it back until they fix it. My 329pd has been back 3 times. I hope it doesn't have to go back again, the thing is racking up some serious frequent flier miles. It does appear they have fixed it this time, but I will see this weekend.

It very well could be once the sloppy yoke fit problem was corrected the ratchet fit issue appeared, as it was there all along, just not apparent. The hand carry up to each ratchet has to be just right for the action to stage correctly, as well as to not have the "hard" feel.

Check the cylinder for end shake back and forth. Insert empty cases in the cylinder, close cylinder into frame and then check for fore and aft shake of cylinder. .001" or less is desired.

If the metal coating on the side of the hammer or trigger is being scraped off, that's a common problem. It is caused by a tad of side to side slop in either/both. If they aren't centered up in the frame slots, the scrapping will commence. It can be fixed with Powers bushings available direct from Power Custom or from Brownells. Sometimes it only takes 1 or 2 bushings.

For David Sinko, Have you measured the RIMZ clips in the area of the head-spacing section? I think you will be surprised at the inaccuracy of your post. A standard moonclip is supposed to be 1mm (.039") thick. The head-spacing section of the RIMZ clip is .037-.038" thick. What is thicker is the section of the RIMZ that basically floats in the space that is normally unused.

I haven't shot the gun in a while, but today I took it out. Overall it had been running better, but there were a few times at the range when I needed to majorly chamber brush so I could eject my empties.

Today the first cylinder or two was fine, but then I had difficulty getting the rounds to seat fully in the chambers. I will scrub them extra when I clean today, but could this be a chamber problem? Maybe they need polishing or reaming to make sure they are correct?

I don't think it is a problem with the dies, since I have them set up and my 45acp loads cycle nicely in my 1911. So if the crimp die was off in some way I would know about it. Besides, they went in fine the first time or two.

I currently reload for 38, 357, 44 special, and 44 mag, and I have not had this problem with any other gun or caliber. So I might be doing something wrong, but its peculiar that it only shows up with this gun.

When I send it back AGAIN should I specifically ask them to polish/ream the chambers? Is there any repair smith in particular to ask for?

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NRA Benefactor Member

Sorry to hear that your gun still is having issues. If you have isolated the problem, ie, if brushing the chambers clean resolves the issues, I might wonder if your loads are kind of light, and fouling the chambers excessively. Low pressure loads don't expand the brass and allow blowback along the sides of the brass. If your brass looks real sooty you might try just bumping up the load a little and see if that takes care of the problem. Also, what do your primers look like on your cases? If they are backing out on firing that might be another sign of pressure being too low.


While polishing the chambers doesn't sound like a bad idea, if your chambers are already on the large side it may be counterproductive.

Best of luck, keep us posted. These kind of problems can be frustrating, but they certainly serve to educate us about our guns, and usually are not insurmountable. Don't give up, sounds like you've got the gun running better, and I'll bet your getting closer to having a nice shooting set up. hth, and Happy Holidays!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

The load is 200gr lswc with bullseye 4.8 gr and federal lp primers, Starline brass (45autorim). The bullets are from Dardas cast. The primers looked fine, not flattened or anything else remarkable.

So I don't think the load is too light...

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NRA Benefactor Member

I had the exact same problem with my 625JM. Cleaned the heck out of it, still was binding. Called S&W and they wanted it back. Turns out they had to replace the cylinder. So, if all the above doesn't fix your problem, call them and send it back. When I got it back with a new cylinder everything worked great.

Doc

Yep, those loads sound fine. I think DocA may have it. If the cylinder does need honing you might as well let the factory do it.

Happy Holidays, all!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Well I think those rimz moon clips are garbage, I use the regular steel ones and never had any issues.
Eric

I guess I don't have much opinion on the rimz yet since this gun probably needs a new cylinder. When it was working (sort of ) the rimz didn't seem to be the problem.

And this is Starline 45 AR brass anyway. I will definitely call S&W on Monday.

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NRA Benefactor Member

I've never noticed this before, but inside all the cylinders I see a fine, spiral pattern etched into the cylinder walls. They are not mirror finished! I can't believe I never noticed this before. I pulled my other S&W revolvers, and NONE of them have anything on the inside remotely resembling what I see inside these chambers.

This must be the problem! It's funny, now that the gun is clean, ammo drops in and out no problem. But since those cylinders are not mirror finished, they must get dirty easily and then grab onto the brass, eh?

I know it isn't from using a bore brush because it is a perfect, spiral pattern. And I've brushed other guns way more than this one, and they look smooth. I think we have the reason. I saw some other web sites which talk about polishing the chamber to remove the reamer marks. Has anyone else had S&W revolvers which still had these marks in them?

So what exactly do I tell S&W? That the chambers need polishing and that they should also check them to make sure they are the correct diameter?

It stinks that I need to send this gun back for the THIRD time, but hopefully this will be the last trip back. Clearly this one was a Monday morning or Friday afternoon creation.

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NRA Benefactor Member

Check out my thread. I think this is the same problem your having.

Need help. Big problem with my 610-3

They replaced the cylinder. It looks similar inside the chambers, though. I will shoot it this weekend and hopefully all will be well.

How on earth could rounds which function flawlessly in a 1911 jam up in a revolver? It better work this time!

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NRA Benefactor Member

Hope it is, let us know.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

This thread truly saddens me. My JM Special has been an exemplary revolver in every way. Obviously, the OP has issues that no one should have - particularly after sending the revolver back twice (and now a third time). Well, maybe what they say is right - "The third time is a charm".

Good luck to you on this go around!
Dale53

Much better now! The first 100 of 45AR brass were no problem extracting. I ran another 100 through using the RIMZ clips, and some (but not all) of the clips had some more difficult extraction. That must be the RIMZ fault, since some of the moonclips ejected no problem and others were more difficult to unload. Overall, I think the problem is fixed.

Time to get more 45AR brass, because I don't like using the RIMZ...

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NRA Benefactor Member

I've been busy with other projects, so I haven't shot this gun again until today. And we're back to the same problems extracting, as well as still noticing a slight click or catch on one or two of the cylinders. After a few cylinders the cases are binding and not wanting to come out. I looked in the cylinder holes again, and they are definitely not polished like all my other revolvers.

I am almost tempted to sell the gun, but I really just want it to work! I am debating between just sending it off to the best revolver smith for a full trigger/action/chamfering/cylinder ream/whatever else job and be done with it. Or should I write a firm letter to S&W management telling them that the gun is still a lemon, and demanding a 4th try at fixing the problem.

I'm not expecting (although it would be nice) Performance Center quality on a regular production gun, but this revolver has problems which none of my others have. It has the worst trigger of any of them, and has had problems from the beginning. I have been a good customer from them, and otherwise I am more than satisfied with my other revolvers.

Can anyone suggest a name I can write to at S&W HQ to try and get a good smith to really work this gun over the right way?

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NRA Benefactor Member

I would sell it.

I first want to say I am sorry to hear of the problem with your revolver.
However, and of course this is only my opinion but I am shocked to hear folks say they would sell it ?
So the way to get rid of a problem is to pass it on to another ?
Now , of course I am not naive enough to think that this is not done all the time.
I guess what surprises me is that people post it on a forum as a solution to a problem ?
I have only had to send a few revolvers in for repair out of the hundreds I have owned, I have never had one not be fixed by Smith at least, one Colt had to go back as they turned a S|A only Officers Model Match into a D|A.
Anyway , sorry to rant but I find it hard to believe that people would advise passing a problem along !!!
Chris

Have you tried shooting factory loads through it to eliminate the possibility of a reloading error? Not saying you have done anything wrong, but eliminating one more possibility may get you closer to the cause.

Did you trim down your auto rim brass when you got it? Maybe two cylinders are throated longer by mm and your headspace is what's causing the binding from the thick auto rim lips. Fire 4 different factory ammos and see if it is a hand load problem, hope this helps.

Rob

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Rob

They probably won't recognize undersize, out of round chambers. Mine was the same way and so was another club members -8. I just bought a monson reamer and did it myself and was shocked at the amount of material I took out, I had to double take and make sure I had the right reamer. You can feel it wasn't round in how it was cutting. The problem vanished, but I'm working on another problem with the throats being undersized and it won't shoot lead to save it's life.

Mine was made Oct 2008 and his shortly after so I suspect it was a gun made during the rush cause I swear the cylinder was just blind drilled and never reamed.

I've found factory ammo is generally on the smallish side for reliability. Factory ammo worked fine in my 625, my reloads didn't but yet they work in a go-no go gauge.

I guess that it is the problem, because the factory will blame any problems on my handloads. It's just so dumb, they replaced the cylinder (which wasn't properly polished) with another cylinder with the same exact problem. Every other smith cylinder I've ever seen are all mirror smooth polished on the inside of each hole.

I would really like to write a long letter to someone who can understand and walk it through the service dept so it gets done right. Who would I write/call?

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NRA Benefactor Member

I had a problem once that I think was about the same.
I bought a LNIB Model 34 22LR revolver on Gun Broker.
Brought it to indoor range and tried every brand of ammo I had and range had to no avail, nothing would go into chambers.
i called Smith customer service and was told I had to pay for everything as it was too old.
I thought whatever, it is a paper weight.
It came back two weeks later and was perfect, I never got a call, never saw a bill.
That is the kind of service I am accustomed to from S&W.
I am quite sure someone forgot some final honing step , but it also was never test fired, stuff happens !!!
I would think your gun is about the same, just not as bad as mine was.
Now, remember, they have only two guys repairing guns on a regular basis, one who does most revolvers and one who works on autos.
Now, they have may have other people for newer stuff too, I only have older stuff.
So, they obviously do not have a lot of issues or it would take more then two !!
Chris

I'm looking at my receipts, I paid about 800 for it a few years ago, and the Bud's buy back program lists it at $450 It has less than 2000 rounds through it, mostly mild lead handloads, so it is barely broken in (minus the not working correctly part)

I looked at Clark Custom Guns, and it looks like a service action job, plus chamber polishing (assuming the cylinder doesn't need to be reamed or whatever else) would cost about 200-300 bucks depending on parts.

Would they be able to turn this lemon into lemonade? I've read so many other posts where people say buying a Performance Center gun is usually a waste, and that a top smith can make a standard production gun into a work of art.

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NRA Benefactor Member

Send it into cylinder and slide for some work!

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Rob

"Mine was made Oct 2008 and his shortly after so I suspect it was a gun made during the rush cause I swear the cylinder was just blind drilled and never reamed."

Might be the same problem, mine said 2-08 on the fired case!

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NRA Benefactor Member

Ok, I sent it back again. I heard from S&W who advised that all the 625 cylinders had the roughness problem because of the way they made each chamber because its a 45 acp cartridge. They said that the PC might be able to fix this.

Now in theory I'd be fine with altering the gun, since I only plan on using 45 AR brass or rimz clips anyway.

So my question is, does this make sense? Do all 625 cylinders lack final polishing because of the head spacing needs of the 45acp? I find it hard to believe I'm the first person frustrated by trying to shoot lead reloads through a non custom 625.

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NRA Benefactor Member

I feel for you, it can be a real test of one's patience to have to keep after S&W CS for the same issue. But from all accounts, and my own experience, perseverance pays off. Of course, if you do want to say "to heck with it", Clarks' or Cylinder and Slide would be one of several good places to send it. Good luck, and I hope this time does it for you!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I got it back from the factory after a few months, and it finally seems to work! I had a little sticking with my 200 gr LSWC rounds, but then it fed the next 200 150gr LSWC no problem, ejected easy. I did have to adjust the sights up a bit for the lighter bullets, and also to the right (not sure why the windage, it was dead on with the 200 load)

The trigger is better, it still isn't super smooth, but I guess I'll just keep dry firing it and shoot it some more. I guess the problems are finally solved.

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NRA Benefactor Member