45stops-em-quick
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As an aside, DoubleTap loads .38 Super to 125gr @ 1350fps / 506ft. lbs. from a 1911, should still be moving pretty quick from a 4" 686.
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38 Super in a 38 Special
- Thread starter westkybanded
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stiab
US Veteran
My Lee reloading manual has 12 loads listed for the .38 Super with 160 grain bullets.
Last edited:
redhawk444
Member
Yes, that is the Silvertip. Did you chrono it with a 5" bbl? Factory ballistics are usually lower than advertised, but not by that much, that represents a velocity difference of about 13%. I will take your word for it though as I have never chronographed any of it.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Yes, it was from a 5" barrel, but it has been a few years since I chronoed any. Hopefully, WW has beefed it up some since then, but as I recall, what you stated (1240fps) was what they touted back then. Since I started carrying 9x23 and don't shoot USPSA anymore, I don't burn much Super ammo of any flavor. I used to carry .38 Supers, usually in shorter guns, so I did lots of chronography to see what was best, both in 5-inchers and shorter guns, both 4 1/4" and my 3" Craig Fantom Fighter. Nothing from any of the majors even matched 9mm+P from any barrel length, so I carried Cor-Bon. One I also recall was the 115gr. JHP load from PMC. It clocked a whopping 1150 fps from a 5" barrel. Cor-Bon 115gr. 9x19 gets 1425 from my Hi-Powers, so the PMC .38 Super question was, "Why?"
This is all very interesting. I had never even considered this before, but I just got home after looking at a friends guns. He had a pretty new M60 .357 loaded with supers and I think he even had them in an older M36 .38 Spl. I about had a heart attack. I told him not to do that. After reading this I guess it's still not a very good idea, but at least in the .357 he probably won't kill himself if he doesn't listen to me. Ya learn something new every day.
stiab
US Veteran
I chrono-ed some of the Winchester 125 grain Silver Tip on three separate occasions back in 2006, from three different boxes. All were shot in my Sig P220 w/4" barrel. On August 12 a 5 shot string averaged 1201 fps. On September 2 two shots averaged 1162 fps, and on October 24 two shots averaged 1176.
The hotter temperatures in August probably influenced the outcomes. Also, the ES on those five shots in August was 43, which I though was a little high. As previously stated, those three results were from different boxes, which I believe spanned a significant time frame of manufacture, because some of the boxes had the cardboard bottom, and others were styrofoam.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Thanks, Stiab! Good recordkeeping on your part. As an official old fart, I suffer time compression. I'm not sure, but I expect that the last Super Silvertips I chronoed would have been in 1998-2000, well before yours. Sounds like yours were peppier, especially since Sig barrels often do not give velocities as high as some others, at least in my experience.
.38 Super in .38 Special
In his book "Pistolsmithing", (Stackpole Books, 1974, sixth printing January 1980) retired Army Ordnance Officer Major George C. Nonte, Jr. mentions on page 393 a S&W M&P converted to .38 Super. Had this conversion been unsafe in any way, he would have advised avoiding this conversion, which he clearly did not. In fact, he has a heading entitled "Conversions Not To Attempt." I quote from the jacket: "George C. Nonte, Jr. , a retired Army Ordnance officer, was one of the most skilled and knowledgeable masters of firearms. A prolific author, he wrote articles and books about almost every aspect of shooting sports. He also operated a professional firearms testing, evaluation, and consultation service." I personally have never tried this, as I have had no reason to up to this point. -Ed.
In his book "Pistolsmithing", (Stackpole Books, 1974, sixth printing January 1980) retired Army Ordnance Officer Major George C. Nonte, Jr. mentions on page 393 a S&W M&P converted to .38 Super. Had this conversion been unsafe in any way, he would have advised avoiding this conversion, which he clearly did not. In fact, he has a heading entitled "Conversions Not To Attempt." I quote from the jacket: "George C. Nonte, Jr. , a retired Army Ordnance officer, was one of the most skilled and knowledgeable masters of firearms. A prolific author, he wrote articles and books about almost every aspect of shooting sports. He also operated a professional firearms testing, evaluation, and consultation service." I personally have never tried this, as I have had no reason to up to this point. -Ed.
David Sinko
Member
I see we are now debating the merits of which gun can fire the respective cartridge. Apparently modern .38 Special revolvers are off limits, because "It's just not fair to bring a modern .38 Special into the equation!"
I think the intention of the original post was to compare the .38 Special IN A REVOLVER to the .38 Super IN A REVOLVER. I owned one of the first "modern" .38 Super revolvers. It was a first run Performance Center 627-4 eight shooter, the 88th one made according to the serial number. Well, that revolver was an embarassment that proves S&W has no shame. It was utterly useless without moonclips (a trend which seems to be creeping into their modern .45 ACP revolvers as well). And apparently the vaunted PC put .357" barrels on these revolvers. Combine that with a .355" cylinder throat and that just might explain why my revolver couldn't hit a man size target at 10 yards with a cast bullet, no matter what the sizing diameter. So why would anybody want such a thing?
The only justification for any .38 Super revolver is ICORE match use, and then mine worked only with jacketed or plated bullets. S&W did make a six shot .38 Super (I believe it was a K Frame) that was intended for IDPA competition, but then shortly thereafter IDPA split the Revolver division and raised the power factor to 165 for the moonclip guns. This decision made demand for that revolver disappear literally overnight. S&W has re-introduced the 8x.38 Super 627 but the hardcore competition shooters suddenly aren't interested. Why is that? Well, at a recent ICORE match I shot side by side with a shooter who was using a 627 Pro .357 Magnum eight shooter with moonclipped .38 Short Colt. That revolver gave excellent accuracy and lightning fast reloads at a fraction of a cost of a Super. Oh, and it works without moonclips! And it works with cast bullets too! S&W's bean counters might be pretty stupid, but competitive shooters who spend their hard earned dollars are not.
Pocket guns? There was a recent thread debating the merits of the 940 chambered in 9mm vs. .38 Super and 9x23. Nobody was able to exceed the velocities I obtained with handloaded 9mm using either the Super or 9x23. In fact, experience has shown me that in a 2" barrel, the 9mm and .38 Special will produce the same velocities with top end loads. Put a longer barrel into the equation and the .38 Special wins every time.
Some shooters want a .38 Super revolver to compliment their Open autos. But guess what? Most of the brass that has been shot out of the Open autos doesn't fit into the Super revolver chambers even after resizing. Why? Because the Open shooters are running at very high pressures in order to make power factor and warping the brass. I never experienced this problem with top end .38 Special handloads in ANY modern revolver.
As far as I see it, the .38 Super has no redeeming value in a revolver. At least not until S&W decides to make their Super revolvers properly. They could start by headspacing the cartridge on the case mouth so that the moonclips wouldn't be necessary for reliable ignition. The semi-rim of the Super cartridge should allow reliable extraction too, meaning that moonclips would be necessary only for fast reloads. And a proper .355" barrel just might be a good idea too. At the moment these minor considerations seem to be too much trouble.
So... what does a .38 Super revolver do that a .38 Special revolver can NOT do, other than cause headaches? I would certainly like to hear from any shooters who have Super revolvers that DO shoot cast bullets well or function properly without moonclips.
Dave Sinko
I think the intention of the original post was to compare the .38 Special IN A REVOLVER to the .38 Super IN A REVOLVER. I owned one of the first "modern" .38 Super revolvers. It was a first run Performance Center 627-4 eight shooter, the 88th one made according to the serial number. Well, that revolver was an embarassment that proves S&W has no shame. It was utterly useless without moonclips (a trend which seems to be creeping into their modern .45 ACP revolvers as well). And apparently the vaunted PC put .357" barrels on these revolvers. Combine that with a .355" cylinder throat and that just might explain why my revolver couldn't hit a man size target at 10 yards with a cast bullet, no matter what the sizing diameter. So why would anybody want such a thing?
The only justification for any .38 Super revolver is ICORE match use, and then mine worked only with jacketed or plated bullets. S&W did make a six shot .38 Super (I believe it was a K Frame) that was intended for IDPA competition, but then shortly thereafter IDPA split the Revolver division and raised the power factor to 165 for the moonclip guns. This decision made demand for that revolver disappear literally overnight. S&W has re-introduced the 8x.38 Super 627 but the hardcore competition shooters suddenly aren't interested. Why is that? Well, at a recent ICORE match I shot side by side with a shooter who was using a 627 Pro .357 Magnum eight shooter with moonclipped .38 Short Colt. That revolver gave excellent accuracy and lightning fast reloads at a fraction of a cost of a Super. Oh, and it works without moonclips! And it works with cast bullets too! S&W's bean counters might be pretty stupid, but competitive shooters who spend their hard earned dollars are not.
Pocket guns? There was a recent thread debating the merits of the 940 chambered in 9mm vs. .38 Super and 9x23. Nobody was able to exceed the velocities I obtained with handloaded 9mm using either the Super or 9x23. In fact, experience has shown me that in a 2" barrel, the 9mm and .38 Special will produce the same velocities with top end loads. Put a longer barrel into the equation and the .38 Special wins every time.
Some shooters want a .38 Super revolver to compliment their Open autos. But guess what? Most of the brass that has been shot out of the Open autos doesn't fit into the Super revolver chambers even after resizing. Why? Because the Open shooters are running at very high pressures in order to make power factor and warping the brass. I never experienced this problem with top end .38 Special handloads in ANY modern revolver.
As far as I see it, the .38 Super has no redeeming value in a revolver. At least not until S&W decides to make their Super revolvers properly. They could start by headspacing the cartridge on the case mouth so that the moonclips wouldn't be necessary for reliable ignition. The semi-rim of the Super cartridge should allow reliable extraction too, meaning that moonclips would be necessary only for fast reloads. And a proper .355" barrel just might be a good idea too. At the moment these minor considerations seem to be too much trouble.
So... what does a .38 Super revolver do that a .38 Special revolver can NOT do, other than cause headaches? I would certainly like to hear from any shooters who have Super revolvers that DO shoot cast bullets well or function properly without moonclips.
Dave Sinko
stiab
US Veteran
What specifically are you referring to? I must of missed something in this thread.
David Sinko
Member
I'm just trying to counter the claim that top end .38 Special loads shouldn't count because "they can't be fired in every .38 Special revolver." Besides, isn't the .38 Super just a hotrodded .38 ACP in modern pistols?
I don't have anything against the .38 Super in a semiauto. I do think it leaves a lot to be desired in a revolver, as it is not better in terms of either power or versatility.
Dave Sinko
I don't have anything against the .38 Super in a semiauto. I do think it leaves a lot to be desired in a revolver, as it is not better in terms of either power or versatility.
Dave Sinko
stiab
US Veteran
I understand now, thanks for the clarification. 
smokinj38
Member
weaker sister? i run a 115 load in my race gun at 1500. i have a 627 in 38 super that they would work great in.
SuperMan
Member
Dave...you are right. In a revolver a .38 Special is much more practical. I had one of the .38 Super 627s and while a nice games gun that is all it was good for...so I sold it... I do however love the two 686s I have. As to cast bullets or shooting w/o moon clips in either gun I have no clue as almost all of my .38 Super shooting over the last 15 years has been with jacketed or plated bullets since the indoor range I shoot at went jacketed only.
As to saying the .38 Super is just a hotrodded .38 Auto, that isn't really correct. Although John Browning/Colt made the very bad error of simply using the .38 Auto case loaded to velocities that could be handled in the new 1911 pistols, .38 Super ammo was never intended to be fired in the old Colts that took the .38 Auto. Can Supers be fired in .38 Autos...yes, but they will beat the guns to death in short order.
And there is a "Modern .38 Special"...it is called the .357 Magnum. .38 Specials loaded to .357 Magnum velocities that can only be shot from a "modern" .38 Special that is nothing more than a short chambered .357 Magnum is not a .38 Special. .38 Special loads that will beat a gun rated for .38 Special +P to pieces are not .38 Specials.
One of my friends on Dallas PD killed a guy with his City Issue Model 15 using the 125 grain Sierra HP with enough powder to run 1250 fps...dropped the guy DRT. It also cracked the forcing cone of the barrel after just a few boxes because unlike the Model 19 .357 Magnum the 15 has much more unsupported barrel sticking out into the frame.
So you can call your Modern .38 Special anything you want like, .38 Special +P++, just like they did back in the 1930s with the .38/44, but you still can't shoot it in a real .38...
Bob
As to saying the .38 Super is just a hotrodded .38 Auto, that isn't really correct. Although John Browning/Colt made the very bad error of simply using the .38 Auto case loaded to velocities that could be handled in the new 1911 pistols, .38 Super ammo was never intended to be fired in the old Colts that took the .38 Auto. Can Supers be fired in .38 Autos...yes, but they will beat the guns to death in short order.
And there is a "Modern .38 Special"...it is called the .357 Magnum. .38 Specials loaded to .357 Magnum velocities that can only be shot from a "modern" .38 Special that is nothing more than a short chambered .357 Magnum is not a .38 Special. .38 Special loads that will beat a gun rated for .38 Special +P to pieces are not .38 Specials.
One of my friends on Dallas PD killed a guy with his City Issue Model 15 using the 125 grain Sierra HP with enough powder to run 1250 fps...dropped the guy DRT. It also cracked the forcing cone of the barrel after just a few boxes because unlike the Model 19 .357 Magnum the 15 has much more unsupported barrel sticking out into the frame.
So you can call your Modern .38 Special anything you want like, .38 Special +P++, just like they did back in the 1930s with the .38/44, but you still can't shoot it in a real .38...
Bob
grendelbane
Member
- Joined
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Some of my .38s and .357s won't chamber a .38 Super cartridge. That is OK with me, as I prefer to shoot .38s and .357s out of wheelguns, and .38 Supers out of bottom feeders. Just funny that way.
I have to wonder if there might not be a .38/.357 chamber out there that is loose enough to chamber a .38 Super, but tight enough to create a high pressure situation when fired.
I also wonder about accuracy, since the cartridge is going to have sloppy headspace on that dinky semi-rim. Plus an extremely long jump to the barrel.
I can't see any call for it other than a true emergency situation.
Fortunately no one has mentioned shooting 9x19 in a 9x23mm chamber.
I have to wonder if there might not be a .38/.357 chamber out there that is loose enough to chamber a .38 Super, but tight enough to create a high pressure situation when fired.
I also wonder about accuracy, since the cartridge is going to have sloppy headspace on that dinky semi-rim. Plus an extremely long jump to the barrel.
I can't see any call for it other than a true emergency situation.
Fortunately no one has mentioned shooting 9x19 in a 9x23mm chamber.
stiab
US Veteran
Some of mine won't either. A 1970 M60 will not but a 1978 M60 will. A 1968 Detective Special will not but a 1969 Python will.
I have not noticed any accuracy problems out of my M28, it's as good for plinking as shooting 38 Special rounds out of it. And as to "long jump to the barrel", I'll need to measure but I think that leap is not as long as for a 9mm to a J frame barrel.
I think all the OP's questions have been asnwered, including that it will work.
shovelwrench
Member
Without reading the entire thread
I think the thickness of the brass has plenty to do with the PSI/CUP a particular handgun will handle, be it a revolver or an auto. If the Super reamer was'nt so darn expensive, and I allready got enough guns to shoot the Super, and a bunch more to shoot the Special. I'd have tried this by now. (not to mention the guys reamin the 940 to Super, and I'm pretty darn sure its the same cylinder as a 640, matter of fact they're interchangeable)
Anyway.....
Heres some "major" data for the Super....... I've seen some that make this look conservative. THIS stuff I sure wold'nt want to run out an older 38 special....
http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl38sup.pdf
I think the thickness of the brass has plenty to do with the PSI/CUP a particular handgun will handle, be it a revolver or an auto. If the Super reamer was'nt so darn expensive, and I allready got enough guns to shoot the Super, and a bunch more to shoot the Special. I'd have tried this by now. (not to mention the guys reamin the 940 to Super, and I'm pretty darn sure its the same cylinder as a 640, matter of fact they're interchangeable)
Anyway.....
Heres some "major" data for the Super....... I've seen some that make this look conservative. THIS stuff I sure wold'nt want to run out an older 38 special....
http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl38sup.pdf
I've read enough. Now all I have to do is sell the RBCD 38 Super I bought or buy another gun to run it. Life is too! Super does not really fit in my 357 magnum and I don't want to shoot it in my dad's 38 Special Victory model even though it fits. I've looked to no avail. Can someone point me to a thread on how to legally get rid of this ammo?
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I've never found anyplace that had .38 Super and didn't have .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I've found lots of places that had .38 Special and/or .357 Magnum that didn't have .38 Super. Just don't see the advantage of shooting expensive ammo from a gun not chambered for it.
ECS
ECS
